Comments on: An Unworthy Bishop and Forgiveness of Sin http://www.nine-moons.com/2006/07/31/an-unworthy-bishop-and-forgiveness-of-sin/ Thu, 20 Nov 2008 17:03:08 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: Steve EM http://www.nine-moons.com/2006/07/31/an-unworthy-bishop-and-forgiveness-of-sin/#comment-3790 Steve EM Tue, 08 Aug 2006 14:14:45 +0000 http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=297#comment-3790 Sad. Your friend is one of many self salvation Mormons who has yet to embrace faith in Jesus and his gift of the atonement, and no Bishop can do that for him. His having repented of the sin long ago and still being concerned that some bureaucratic step, in this case a confession, might not have been valid says it all. Faith in Jesus isn’t faith in the Bishop; it’s faith that Jesus will shield us from the judgment. Confession to the Bishop and a Bishop's counsel are tools that can assist repentance and help regain faith in Jesus. But in the end, only Jesus can lift the burden of the judgment. Sad that one of the flock should be unnecessarily burdened for so long. A victim of cultural Mormonism? Sad. Your friend is one of many self salvation Mormons who has yet to embrace faith in Jesus and his gift of the atonement, and no Bishop can do that for him. His having repented of the sin long ago and still being concerned that some bureaucratic step, in this case a confession, might not have been valid says it all. Faith in Jesus isn’t faith in the Bishop; it’s faith that Jesus will shield us from the judgment. Confession to the Bishop and a Bishop’s counsel are tools that can assist repentance and help regain faith in Jesus. But in the end, only Jesus can lift the burden of the judgment. Sad that one of the flock should be unnecessarily burdened for so long. A victim of cultural Mormonism?

]]> By: Seth R. http://www.nine-moons.com/2006/07/31/an-unworthy-bishop-and-forgiveness-of-sin/#comment-3786 Seth R. Mon, 07 Aug 2006 22:49:10 +0000 http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=297#comment-3786 The fact that he's asking about it seems to indicate that he has something that he wants to get off his chest. He would probably benefit from visiting the current bishop and putting it behind him. However, I don't think anyone has really grasped what your friends real concern is here. The way I read the post, he's worried that a confession would require him to rat-out the old unworthy bishop to the current bishop. Am I wrong? If that's the problem, then I can think of a couple ways he could approach it with the new bishop without implicating the old bishop. But it's really up to him to determine whether to inform his current bishop on that issue. The fact that he’s asking about it seems to indicate that he has something that he wants to get off his chest. He would probably benefit from visiting the current bishop and putting it behind him.

However, I don’t think anyone has really grasped what your friends real concern is here.

The way I read the post, he’s worried that a confession would require him to rat-out the old unworthy bishop to the current bishop. Am I wrong?

If that’s the problem, then I can think of a couple ways he could approach it with the new bishop without implicating the old bishop. But it’s really up to him to determine whether to inform his current bishop on that issue.

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.nine-moons.com/2006/07/31/an-unworthy-bishop-and-forgiveness-of-sin/#comment-3737 Anonymous Thu, 03 Aug 2006 01:40:32 +0000 http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=297#comment-3737 Not to get too off track here. It is my understanding that the worst things about self gratification and pornography is the more serious sins that they can lead to. In and of themselves they are sins, but is confession required to gain forgiveness? I had thought that adultry/fornication were the big ones that required confession. Not to get too off track here. It is my understanding that the worst things about self gratification and pornography is the more serious sins that they can lead to. In and of themselves they are sins, but is confession required to gain forgiveness? I had thought that adultry/fornication were the big ones that required confession.

]]> By: Faith-Promoting Rumor » Blog Archive » The Effects of the Christ-Event: Redemption and Forgiveness http://www.nine-moons.com/2006/07/31/an-unworthy-bishop-and-forgiveness-of-sin/#comment-3731 Faith-Promoting Rumor » Blog Archive » The Effects of the Christ-Event: Redemption and Forgiveness Wed, 02 Aug 2006 10:51:39 +0000 http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=297#comment-3731 [...] After reading Don Clifton’s short post on forgiveness over at Nine Moons, I spent the rest of the day feeling somewhat sad. It sounds like the gentleman in question was well-taught on the subject of sin, but less conversant with respect to forgiveness. That sort of imbalance strikes me as unhealthy. [...] [...] After reading Don Clifton’s short post on forgiveness over at Nine Moons, I spent the rest of the day feeling somewhat sad. It sounds like the gentleman in question was well-taught on the subject of sin, but less conversant with respect to forgiveness. That sort of imbalance strikes me as unhealthy. [...]

]]> By: Jacob http://www.nine-moons.com/2006/07/31/an-unworthy-bishop-and-forgiveness-of-sin/#comment-3730 Jacob Wed, 02 Aug 2006 04:21:33 +0000 http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=297#comment-3730 If the problem is that he is worried his confession doesn't count due to a the bishop being unworthy then this seems like a no-brainer. Doesn't matter at all as far as I'm concerned. However, if I were giving this Brother counsel, I would make sure to follow that point by saying that the question of whether he has been forgiven is one he should take up with the Lord. The feeling that comes when God lets us know that we are forgiven is one of the sweetest experience in the gospel, and if he is still wringing his hands he should spend a good deal of time wearying the Lord on this point until he either gets this witness or is prompted as to what else remains for him to do. I have no doubt one of those two will come if sought diligently. If the problem is that he is worried his confession doesn’t count due to a the bishop being unworthy then this seems like a no-brainer. Doesn’t matter at all as far as I’m concerned.

However, if I were giving this Brother counsel, I would make sure to follow that point by saying that the question of whether he has been forgiven is one he should take up with the Lord. The feeling that comes when God lets us know that we are forgiven is one of the sweetest experience in the gospel, and if he is still wringing his hands he should spend a good deal of time wearying the Lord on this point until he either gets this witness or is prompted as to what else remains for him to do. I have no doubt one of those two will come if sought diligently.

]]> By: cchrissyy http://www.nine-moons.com/2006/07/31/an-unworthy-bishop-and-forgiveness-of-sin/#comment-3728 cchrissyy Wed, 02 Aug 2006 03:44:48 +0000 http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=297#comment-3728 I think the unworthy bishop may have given bad guidance- your friend is probably right that he was too easy on him and wrongly made it seem like "not a big deal". But aparently, the bad guidance didn't stop him from recovering, and that's what counts. Forgiveness/confession wise, he's covered. (assuming he made a full confession) So I'd tell him it's confessed, it's over- unless inside him, it's not really over and he needs further guidance from the better bishop. his aproaching you and feeling guilt might be a sign that he's still really struggling with shameful temptations and does need to see the bishop. And if he didn't want to tell you so, he could ask about the technicality of the former confession... just a possibility. I think the unworthy bishop may have given bad guidance- your friend is probably right that he was too easy on him and wrongly made it seem like “not a big deal”.
But aparently, the bad guidance didn’t stop him from recovering, and that’s what counts.

Forgiveness/confession wise, he’s covered. (assuming he made a full confession)

So I’d tell him it’s confessed, it’s over- unless inside him, it’s not really over and he needs further guidance from the better bishop.

his aproaching you and feeling guilt might be a sign that he’s still really struggling with shameful temptations and does need to see the bishop. And if he didn’t want to tell you so, he could ask about the technicality of the former confession…
just a possibility.

]]> By: DavidH http://www.nine-moons.com/2006/07/31/an-unworthy-bishop-and-forgiveness-of-sin/#comment-3727 DavidH Tue, 01 Aug 2006 17:58:54 +0000 http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=297#comment-3727 Congratulations to your friend for having repented of heavy involvement in pornography, and avoiding relapses for several years. The friend should consult with the Lord about whether he needs further ecclesiastical involvement to help relieve lingering feelings of guilt or shame. With respect to his wife, he should consult with the Lord as well, but I think, particularly if the past experiences continue to bother him (or if there is any "pull" at all towards a relapse), the general principle should be to disclose in a sensitive, tactful, and careful way: "A husband must have no private, hidden agenda that is kept secret from his wife. Sharing everything about each other’s personal life is powerful spiritual insurance." Richard G. Scott, Ensign, May 2000. His ecclesiastical leaders, or a professional therapist, could be very helpful in this process. Congratulations to your friend for having repented of heavy involvement in pornography, and avoiding relapses for several years. The friend should consult with the Lord about whether he needs further ecclesiastical involvement to help relieve lingering feelings of guilt or shame. With respect to his wife, he should consult with the Lord as well, but I think, particularly if the past experiences continue to bother him (or if there is any “pull” at all towards a relapse), the general principle should be to disclose in a sensitive, tactful, and careful way: “A husband must have no private, hidden agenda that is kept secret from his wife. Sharing everything about each other’s personal life is powerful spiritual insurance.” Richard G. Scott, Ensign, May 2000. His ecclesiastical leaders, or a professional therapist, could be very helpful in this process.

]]> By: Mark Butler http://www.nine-moons.com/2006/07/31/an-unworthy-bishop-and-forgiveness-of-sin/#comment-3717 Mark Butler Tue, 01 Aug 2006 14:18:54 +0000 http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=297#comment-3717 The Bishop can only become the person who forgives sins on the day he starts suffering for all the consequences thereof. That is clearly not the case. "For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son." (John 5:22) The Bishop can only become the person who forgives sins on the day he starts suffering for all the consequences thereof. That is clearly not the case.

“For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son.” (John 5:22)

]]> By: Mogget http://www.nine-moons.com/2006/07/31/an-unworthy-bishop-and-forgiveness-of-sin/#comment-3716 Mogget Tue, 01 Aug 2006 12:50:53 +0000 http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=297#comment-3716 Eric is on the mark. God does the forgiving. The bishop simply declares his standing with respect to the church. Eric is on the mark. God does the forgiving. The bishop simply declares his standing with respect to the church.

]]> By: hplc http://www.nine-moons.com/2006/07/31/an-unworthy-bishop-and-forgiveness-of-sin/#comment-3715 hplc Tue, 01 Aug 2006 05:45:37 +0000 http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=297#comment-3715 This sounds like old-fashioned unhealthy guilt to me. I second the last statement by Tim J. This guy needs to forgive himself; if he has confessed to the church and prayed to God for forgiveness and still feels guilty, then he needs to have faith that he is forgiven. There isn't anything more "the church" can do for him, short of give him a blessing to rid him of guilty feelings that are not from God. He can confess again, but I guarantee he will find something defective in the second confession and the false guilt will return. This sounds like old-fashioned unhealthy guilt to me. I second the last statement by Tim J. This guy needs to forgive himself; if he has confessed to the church and prayed to God for forgiveness and still feels guilty, then he needs to have faith that he is forgiven. There isn’t anything more “the church” can do for him, short of give him a blessing to rid him of guilty feelings that are not from God. He can confess again, but I guarantee he will find something defective in the second confession and the false guilt will return.

]]>