Comments on: The Beauty of the Gospel http://www.nine-moons.com/2007/02/02/the-beauty-of-the-gospel/ Tue, 02 Dec 2008 01:48:05 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: Nine Moons » Blog Archive : My “Inoculation” » My “Inoculation” http://www.nine-moons.com/2007/02/02/the-beauty-of-the-gospel/#comment-21363 Nine Moons » Blog Archive : My “Inoculation” » My “Inoculation” Fri, 17 Aug 2007 14:55:49 +0000 http://www.nine-moons.com/2007/02/02/the-beauty-of-the-gospel/#comment-21363 [...] Though my trust in that witness is not always perfect, its power is what has anchored me over the past several years as I have learned more faith-challenging aspects of the Church. Plus, as I always have, I still take everything everyone says with a grain of salt and I still believe that there are questions that cannot be definitively settled through argumentation and examination of hard evidence. From hanging around the internet I think I have at least cursory knowledge of everything that seems to cause a lot of problems for people and some of that has probably influenced the way I regard the Church and its leaders, but it hasn’t caused a crisis and my faith has remained intact. I haven’t felt betrayed or deceived. I still trust the current leadership of the Church and I still find the Gospel as taught by the Church to be indescribably beautiful and true. [...] [...] Though my trust in that witness is not always perfect, its power is what has anchored me over the past several years as I have learned more faith-challenging aspects of the Church. Plus, as I always have, I still take everything everyone says with a grain of salt and I still believe that there are questions that cannot be definitively settled through argumentation and examination of hard evidence. From hanging around the internet I think I have at least cursory knowledge of everything that seems to cause a lot of problems for people and some of that has probably influenced the way I regard the Church and its leaders, but it hasn’t caused a crisis and my faith has remained intact. I haven’t felt betrayed or deceived. I still trust the current leadership of the Church and I still find the Gospel as taught by the Church to be indescribably beautiful and true. [...]

]]> By: Antibush http://www.nine-moons.com/2007/02/02/the-beauty-of-the-gospel/#comment-7585 Antibush Thu, 15 Feb 2007 00:20:05 +0000 http://www.nine-moons.com/2007/02/02/the-beauty-of-the-gospel/#comment-7585 Bush goes ballistic about other countries being evil and dangerous, because they have weapons of mass destruction. But, he insists on building up even a more deadly supply of nuclear arms right here in the US. What do you think? What is he doing to us, and what is he doing to the world? What happened to us, people? When did we become such lemmings? We have lost friends and influenced no one. No wonder most of the world thinks we suck. Thanks to what george bush has done to our country during the past three years, we do! Bush goes ballistic about other countries being evil and dangerous, because they have weapons of mass destruction. But, he insists on building up even a more deadly supply of nuclear arms right here in the US. What do you think? What is he doing to us, and what is he doing to the world?
What happened to us, people? When did we become such lemmings?
We have lost friends and influenced no one. No wonder most of the world thinks we suck. Thanks to what george bush has done to our country during the past three years, we do!

]]> By: Defensor Veritatis » Blog Archive » All kinds of stuff! http://www.nine-moons.com/2007/02/02/the-beauty-of-the-gospel/#comment-7299 Defensor Veritatis » Blog Archive » All kinds of stuff! Wed, 07 Feb 2007 23:14:11 +0000 http://www.nine-moons.com/2007/02/02/the-beauty-of-the-gospel/#comment-7299 [...] - Next, the discussion I mentioned in my previous post has continued.  Tom tells me: … If you didn’t know what not breathing was like could you really appreciate or enjoy breathing? [...] [...] - Next, the discussion I mentioned in my previous post has continued.  Tom tells me: … If you didn’t know what not breathing was like could you really appreciate or enjoy breathing? [...]

]]> By: Tom http://www.nine-moons.com/2007/02/02/the-beauty-of-the-gospel/#comment-7179 Tom Tue, 06 Feb 2007 14:14:02 +0000 http://www.nine-moons.com/2007/02/02/the-beauty-of-the-gospel/#comment-7179 <em>Must you suffocate for a while to enjoy breathing? </em> Yes. We rarely enjoy breathing. We just do it automatically. I'm breathing right now and I'm glad I'm breathing, but it brings me no particluar satisfaction or enjoyment. I appreciate that I'm breathing because I know what it's like to not breathe. The only time breathing is a source of actual enjoyment is right after you've been deprived of air. That first breath is such a great relief because it's in direct contrast to the previous pain. If you didn't know what not breathing was like could you really appreciate or enjoy breathing? <em>More directly, what about Jesus our model? He never sinned; He didn’t *not* do good, yet surely He has the most perfect experience of the moral good in history. </em> You're right, one need not sin in order to be good. Like you said, one must have the opportunity to sin in order to be good. That's a different matter from the need to have first hand experience of sadness and pain in order to know happiness and joy. Must you suffocate for a while to enjoy breathing?

Yes. We rarely enjoy breathing. We just do it automatically. I’m breathing right now and I’m glad I’m breathing, but it brings me no particluar satisfaction or enjoyment. I appreciate that I’m breathing because I know what it’s like to not breathe. The only time breathing is a source of actual enjoyment is right after you’ve been deprived of air. That first breath is such a great relief because it’s in direct contrast to the previous pain. If you didn’t know what not breathing was like could you really appreciate or enjoy breathing?

More directly, what about Jesus our model? He never sinned; He didn’t *not* do good, yet surely He has the most perfect experience of the moral good in history.

You’re right, one need not sin in order to be good. Like you said, one must have the opportunity to sin in order to be good. That’s a different matter from the need to have first hand experience of sadness and pain in order to know happiness and joy.

]]> By: Brad Haas http://www.nine-moons.com/2007/02/02/the-beauty-of-the-gospel/#comment-7163 Brad Haas Tue, 06 Feb 2007 07:19:25 +0000 http://www.nine-moons.com/2007/02/02/the-beauty-of-the-gospel/#comment-7163 Must you suffocate for a while to enjoy breathing? I believe that we're just as built for joy and goodness (for God Himself, in other words) as we are for breathing. More directly, what about Jesus our model? He never sinned; He didn't *not* do good, yet surely He has the most perfect experience of the moral good in history. Must you suffocate for a while to enjoy breathing? I believe that we’re just as built for joy and goodness (for God Himself, in other words) as we are for breathing.

More directly, what about Jesus our model? He never sinned; He didn’t *not* do good, yet surely He has the most perfect experience of the moral good in history.

]]> By: Tom http://www.nine-moons.com/2007/02/02/the-beauty-of-the-gospel/#comment-7133 Tom Mon, 05 Feb 2007 19:21:39 +0000 http://www.nine-moons.com/2007/02/02/the-beauty-of-the-gospel/#comment-7133 <em>Of course, He does allow Satan to tempt us, that we may experience the moral good by choosing correctly (but we need not choose wrongly to experience said good). </em> I think this is perfectly in line with the Mormon understanding of things. But joy, the ultimate benefit of doing good, can only be experienced and fully appreciated if we also experience absense of joy and sorrow, which are inevitable aspects of the mortal experience. Of course, He does allow Satan to tempt us, that we may experience the moral good by choosing correctly (but we need not choose wrongly to experience said good).

I think this is perfectly in line with the Mormon understanding of things. But joy, the ultimate benefit of doing good, can only be experienced and fully appreciated if we also experience absense of joy and sorrow, which are inevitable aspects of the mortal experience.

]]> By: Brad Haas http://www.nine-moons.com/2007/02/02/the-beauty-of-the-gospel/#comment-7131 Brad Haas Mon, 05 Feb 2007 18:59:20 +0000 http://www.nine-moons.com/2007/02/02/the-beauty-of-the-gospel/#comment-7131 Are you saying the truth is that we're basically sinful? Did the Father set it up this way? On a side note, I don't believe it's destroying Satan's agency to protect us from him, any more than it destroys a convict's free will to protect society from him via a prison. He can will to harm us all he wants even if the Father prevents him. Of course, He does allow Satan to tempt us, that we may experience the moral good by choosing correctly (but we need not choose wrongly to experience said good). Are you saying the truth is that we’re basically sinful? Did the Father set it up this way?

On a side note, I don’t believe it’s destroying Satan’s agency to protect us from him, any more than it destroys a convict’s free will to protect society from him via a prison. He can will to harm us all he wants even if the Father prevents him. Of course, He does allow Satan to tempt us, that we may experience the moral good by choosing correctly (but we need not choose wrongly to experience said good).

]]> By: Rob Osborn http://www.nine-moons.com/2007/02/02/the-beauty-of-the-gospel/#comment-7083 Rob Osborn Sat, 03 Feb 2007 16:49:36 +0000 http://www.nine-moons.com/2007/02/02/the-beauty-of-the-gospel/#comment-7083 Defensor, The truth of it is- if you go back to our very foundations in heaven before this earth was created, it was a known part growing that once we came to earth in our somewhat infant state we would all sin iregardless of whether or not there was an evil influence swaying us. It is the natural man that is an enemy to god. This to me means that it is natural for man to please his carnal desires and that he has to learn how to bridal those passions and control how he uses his desires. Before Satan became Satan the plan of our salvation was already in place and we all understood it. We all knew that left alone in the world we would sin and become imperfect. Satan is actually a hindrence to the plan of salvation. It would have been much better had he not chosen to become evil. God allows him to tempt us because to deny that would destroy both Satan's agency and ours. Many miss the critical point of the lecture in the Book of Mormon that wickedness or goodness could not come to pass if either it was impossible to do so or that it was immediately silenced. I agree with you that it seems backwards to "have to" experience being wicked in order to be good. Defensor,

The truth of it is- if you go back to our very foundations in heaven before this earth was created, it was a known part growing that once we came to earth in our somewhat infant state we would all sin iregardless of whether or not there was an evil influence swaying us. It is the natural man that is an enemy to god. This to me means that it is natural for man to please his carnal desires and that he has to learn how to bridal those passions and control how he uses his desires. Before Satan became Satan the plan of our salvation was already in place and we all understood it. We all knew that left alone in the world we would sin and become imperfect.

Satan is actually a hindrence to the plan of salvation. It would have been much better had he not chosen to become evil. God allows him to tempt us because to deny that would destroy both Satan’s agency and ours. Many miss the critical point of the lecture in the Book of Mormon that wickedness or goodness could not come to pass if either it was impossible to do so or that it was immediately silenced.

I agree with you that it seems backwards to “have to” experience being wicked in order to be good.

]]> By: Proud Daughter of Eve http://www.nine-moons.com/2007/02/02/the-beauty-of-the-gospel/#comment-7070 Proud Daughter of Eve Sat, 03 Feb 2007 04:57:31 +0000 http://www.nine-moons.com/2007/02/02/the-beauty-of-the-gospel/#comment-7070 Beautiful summary! :) It's too bad Defensor Veritatis can't see it. Beautiful summary! :) It’s too bad Defensor Veritatis can’t see it.

]]> By: Rusty http://www.nine-moons.com/2007/02/02/the-beauty-of-the-gospel/#comment-7067 Rusty Sat, 03 Feb 2007 00:51:54 +0000 http://www.nine-moons.com/2007/02/02/the-beauty-of-the-gospel/#comment-7067 Wonderful post Tom. I would say that my thoughts are the exact same but I fear I'm starting to sound like a broken record. Wonderful post Tom. I would say that my thoughts are the exact same but I fear I’m starting to sound like a broken record.

]]>