Comments on: How Involved Is God? http://www.nine-moons.com/2007/11/08/how-involved-is-god/ Tue, 02 Dec 2008 03:19:52 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: m&m http://www.nine-moons.com/2007/11/08/how-involved-is-god/#comment-29027 m&m Mon, 12 Nov 2007 07:37:08 +0000 http://www.nine-moons.com/2007/11/08/how-involved-is-god/#comment-29027 We think linearly. God doesn't work that way. His work and glory and will are multi-dimensional. He works across space and time to accomplish good in our lives. Good isn't just nice and good things. Good is growth toward our greatest personal eternal potential. I believe He allows for agency, but because of His "greatness," He is able to "consecrate [our] afflictions for [our] gain." (Jacob 2:2) And He will bless us as much as He possibly can based on our faithfulness and His mercy. But blessings aren't all in nice mortal packages. They may be eternally based. Brother Jones may struggle to find a job for a decade, if God's will is that he struggle to learn or to allow for whatever growth needs to happen in many lives. Brother Smith may get the job to be in a place to touch a life or to find the gospel or.... Or vice versa. And Brother Smith's children's children will likely be impacted because of things that happen, and maybe his ancestors will, too, if he joins the Church. And so it goes, in myriad scenarios, all known to God. When we start to think about the interconnectedness of all of our decisions, when we recognize that God knows past, present and future, when we contemplate the many experiences we have with tender mercies, and multiply that by the billions upon billions of children God has, I think we begin to scratch the surface of the vastness of the Atonement's power. To try to sum up God's involvement in a prayer-response kind of way misses that complexity completely. None of us exists in a vacuum or vending machine zone. There are no dead ends to God, and He can make beauty of ashes, regardless of how those ashes are formed (be it through natural causes or others' agency or whatever the force). I take great comfort in knowing that somehow, He is aware of each of His children, and He is able to consecrate all of our lives for our best good, taking agency, the 'natural' flow of things, His purposes, and everything else into account. If He grants me every breath, I assume that He grants me healthy-enough neural connections and the agency to make decisions. It ALL comes back to Him. In short, if He counts hairs on my head and knows of a sparrow's fall, I think of Him as pretty involved. :) We think linearly. God doesn’t work that way. His work and glory and will are multi-dimensional. He works across space and time to accomplish good in our lives. Good isn’t just nice and good things. Good is growth toward our greatest personal eternal potential. I believe He allows for agency, but because of His “greatness,” He is able to “consecrate [our] afflictions for [our] gain.” (Jacob 2:2) And He will bless us as much as He possibly can based on our faithfulness and His mercy. But blessings aren’t all in nice mortal packages. They may be eternally based. Brother Jones may struggle to find a job for a decade, if God’s will is that he struggle to learn or to allow for whatever growth needs to happen in many lives. Brother Smith may get the job to be in a place to touch a life or to find the gospel or…. Or vice versa. And Brother Smith’s children’s children will likely be impacted because of things that happen, and maybe his ancestors will, too, if he joins the Church. And so it goes, in myriad scenarios, all known to God.

When we start to think about the interconnectedness of all of our decisions, when we recognize that God knows past, present and future, when we contemplate the many experiences we have with tender mercies, and multiply that by the billions upon billions of children God has, I think we begin to scratch the surface of the vastness of the Atonement’s power. To try to sum up God’s involvement in a prayer-response kind of way misses that complexity completely. None of us exists in a vacuum or vending machine zone. There are no dead ends to God, and He can make beauty of ashes, regardless of how those ashes are formed (be it through natural causes or others’ agency or whatever the force).

I take great comfort in knowing that somehow, He is aware of each of His children, and He is able to consecrate all of our lives for our best good, taking agency, the ‘natural’ flow of things, His purposes, and everything else into account. If He grants me every breath, I assume that He grants me healthy-enough neural connections and the agency to make decisions. It ALL comes back to Him.

In short, if He counts hairs on my head and knows of a sparrow’s fall, I think of Him as pretty involved. :)

]]> By: Howard http://www.nine-moons.com/2007/11/08/how-involved-is-god/#comment-28942 Howard Sun, 11 Nov 2007 16:27:43 +0000 http://www.nine-moons.com/2007/11/08/how-involved-is-god/#comment-28942 <em>"How can God expect us to develop our agency learning to make right choices if we are always going to Him to have Him tell us what to do?"</em> Going to Him is exercising our agency. John Taylor: <blockquote>"I always am very desirous to acknowledge His hand in all things, and I am very anxious that you should do the same. For to the Lord we are indebted for every blessing we enjoy, pertaining to this life, and the life which is to come."</blockquote> November 1, 1886 “How can God expect us to develop our agency learning to make right choices if we are always going to Him to have Him tell us what to do?”

Going to Him is exercising our agency.

John Taylor:

“I always am very desirous to acknowledge His hand in all things, and I am very anxious that you should do the same. For to the Lord we are indebted for every blessing we enjoy, pertaining to this life, and the life which is to come.”

November 1, 1886

]]> By: LDS Anarchist http://www.nine-moons.com/2007/11/08/how-involved-is-god/#comment-28921 LDS Anarchist Sun, 11 Nov 2007 12:13:37 +0000 http://www.nine-moons.com/2007/11/08/how-involved-is-god/#comment-28921 The Lord doesn't care about jobs or job qualifications. He cares about saving his children's souls. If Jones exercises faith as a principle of power, God must act. He is bound to intervene. Smith doesn't exercise faith as a principle of power, therefore, although he is better qualified for the job, he is less qualified for salvation. Jones can influence the lives of his new boss and co-workers for more good, having a greater portion of the Spirit, than Smith can. So, it is in the interest of the boss and co-workers to have Jones work there, as he will preach to them the restored gospel, if only by example or by the Spirit emanating from him to them. It is also to Jones' benefit that he get the job, as he has exercised sufficient faith in God as a principle of power and signs must follow faith, confirming Jones' faith in God and thus, strengthening him further in the gospel. Smith loses out because he didn't exercise faith as a principle of power, however, God is still mindful of him and this may teach him the lesson that he needs to repent and finally have and exercise power faith in Christ, at which point, he will also be equally blessed as Jones was. So, as I understand it, there is no degree or line or level above which God will intervene and below which God will not intervene. No matter how small the item or how large the case, God must intervene if his children exercise sufficient power faith. He is bound to confirm their faith with signs. The Lord doesn’t care about jobs or job qualifications. He cares about saving his children’s souls. If Jones exercises faith as a principle of power, God must act. He is bound to intervene. Smith doesn’t exercise faith as a principle of power, therefore, although he is better qualified for the job, he is less qualified for salvation. Jones can influence the lives of his new boss and co-workers for more good, having a greater portion of the Spirit, than Smith can. So, it is in the interest of the boss and co-workers to have Jones work there, as he will preach to them the restored gospel, if only by example or by the Spirit emanating from him to them. It is also to Jones’ benefit that he get the job, as he has exercised sufficient faith in God as a principle of power and signs must follow faith, confirming Jones’ faith in God and thus, strengthening him further in the gospel. Smith loses out because he didn’t exercise faith as a principle of power, however, God is still mindful of him and this may teach him the lesson that he needs to repent and finally have and exercise power faith in Christ, at which point, he will also be equally blessed as Jones was.

So, as I understand it, there is no degree or line or level above which God will intervene and below which God will not intervene. No matter how small the item or how large the case, God must intervene if his children exercise sufficient power faith. He is bound to confirm their faith with signs.

]]> By: Bookslinger http://www.nine-moons.com/2007/11/08/how-involved-is-god/#comment-28650 Bookslinger Fri, 09 Nov 2007 01:44:26 +0000 http://www.nine-moons.com/2007/11/08/how-involved-is-god/#comment-28650 DC 59:21 "... or against none is his wrath kindled, save those who confess not his hand in all things, and obey not his commandments." Apparently, God's hand is in _all_ things. DC 59:21 “… or against none is his wrath kindled, save those who confess not his hand in all things, and obey not his commandments.”

Apparently, God’s hand is in _all_ things.

]]> By: Daylan http://www.nine-moons.com/2007/11/08/how-involved-is-god/#comment-28647 Daylan Fri, 09 Nov 2007 01:23:13 +0000 http://www.nine-moons.com/2007/11/08/how-involved-is-god/#comment-28647 D&C 130:20-21 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated. If this is strictly true then just how involved can God be in granting blessings to laws which are not obeyed? D&C 130:20-21 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

If this is strictly true then just how involved can God be in granting blessings to laws which are not obeyed?

]]> By: Cheryl http://www.nine-moons.com/2007/11/08/how-involved-is-god/#comment-28619 Cheryl Thu, 08 Nov 2007 21:40:51 +0000 http://www.nine-moons.com/2007/11/08/how-involved-is-god/#comment-28619 "God can't steer a parked car!" (I think John Bytheway said that. I can't remember). Well, it could always have the opposite effect. When we <em>don't</em> rely on God, we may also miss out on the opportunities that could have been ours, just as those that only rely on God will miss out because they aren't moving their "car". I think the answer to your question is a lot more involved and complicated then we could ever imagine. But I'm expecting many people will try to answer it anyway... :) “God can’t steer a parked car!” (I think John Bytheway said that. I can’t remember).

Well, it could always have the opposite effect. When we don’t rely on God, we may also miss out on the opportunities that could have been ours, just as those that only rely on God will miss out because they aren’t moving their “car”.

I think the answer to your question is a lot more involved and complicated then we could ever imagine. But I’m expecting many people will try to answer it anyway… :)

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