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	<title>Comments on: Ether 12:27 and Revisionist Readings</title>
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	<link>http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=1009</link>
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		<title>By: WP Themes</title>
		<link>http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=1009&#038;cpage=1#comment-90795</link>
		<dc:creator>WP Themes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jul 2010 07:53:33 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Good post and this mail helped me alot in my college assignement. Thanks you seeking your information.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good post and this mail helped me alot in my college assignement. Thanks you seeking your information.</p>
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		<title>By: Ziff</title>
		<link>http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=1009&#038;cpage=1#comment-89233</link>
		<dc:creator>Ziff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Oct 2009 06:11:07 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Great post, MCQ! I guess the difference in interpretation had never really struck me, or perhaps I&#039;ve just never heard the specific interpretation you&#039;re arguing against articulated clearly. For what it&#039;s worth, I think you&#039;re right in your interpretation. It&#039;s also, as you note, much more hopeful to consider that we might be made strong in &lt;i&gt;all&lt;/i&gt; our weaknesses.

This reminds me--tangentially--of a point Lynnette once made to me about how NT writers seem to have thought of sin as a general state of being (you&#039;re in sin or you&#039;re in grace, I think) but that we now generally think more of specific little bad acts--sins. This kind of reminds me of what other commenters have already said about weakness as a general state of being maybe also being what God was talking about. I don&#039;t know.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post, MCQ! I guess the difference in interpretation had never really struck me, or perhaps I&#8217;ve just never heard the specific interpretation you&#8217;re arguing against articulated clearly. For what it&#8217;s worth, I think you&#8217;re right in your interpretation. It&#8217;s also, as you note, much more hopeful to consider that we might be made strong in <i>all</i> our weaknesses.</p>
<p>This reminds me&#8211;tangentially&#8211;of a point Lynnette once made to me about how NT writers seem to have thought of sin as a general state of being (you&#8217;re in sin or you&#8217;re in grace, I think) but that we now generally think more of specific little bad acts&#8211;sins. This kind of reminds me of what other commenters have already said about weakness as a general state of being maybe also being what God was talking about. I don&#8217;t know.</p>
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		<title>By: Linda</title>
		<link>http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=1009&#038;cpage=1#comment-89178</link>
		<dc:creator>Linda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Oct 2009 03:05:09 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>MCQ, of course words mean things. However the level of interpretation, (that weakness means a certain talent or skill) would tell you that there is a lack of understanding or denial of other weaknesses. The gospel messages from the Savior are pure and simple for those who are ready and able to receive it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MCQ, of course words mean things. However the level of interpretation, (that weakness means a certain talent or skill) would tell you that there is a lack of understanding or denial of other weaknesses. The gospel messages from the Savior are pure and simple for those who are ready and able to receive it.</p>
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		<title>By: MCQ</title>
		<link>http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=1009&#038;cpage=1#comment-89166</link>
		<dc:creator>MCQ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2009 20:29:26 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Darin and Marty, excellent comments both.  Thank you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Darin and Marty, excellent comments both.  Thank you.</p>
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		<title>By: Marty</title>
		<link>http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=1009&#038;cpage=1#comment-89131</link>
		<dc:creator>Marty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2009 03:40:22 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I agree largely with 1. Ben. 8 is intriguing too, which makes sense why it is singular.
Over ten years ago I heard (don&#039;t remember where) comments about &lt;blockquote&gt;weakness &lt;/blockquote&gt;being singular b/c it refers to our &lt;em&gt;ultimate &lt;/em&gt;weakness, not just our individual weaknesses. That ultimate weakness can only be made strong through the Atonement. Instead of thinking of the atonement in piece meal fashion, in a modern, Western, self-improvement sense of one by one improving our wekenesses, it is declaring the power of the atonement to make us strong through Jesus Christ. Thinking of weaknesses in this modern piece meal fashion is anachronistic to the Book of Mormon. Seeing our ultimate wekaness helps us step out of a myopic view of individual weaknesses to the greater view of the divine grace of Jesus to save us from that which brings all &lt;em&gt;weaknesses&lt;/em&gt;, our fallen nature--only overcome through the Savior.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree largely with 1. Ben. 8 is intriguing too, which makes sense why it is singular.<br />
Over ten years ago I heard (don&#8217;t remember where) comments about<br />
<blockquote>weakness </p></blockquote>
<p>being singular b/c it refers to our <em>ultimate </em>weakness, not just our individual weaknesses. That ultimate weakness can only be made strong through the Atonement. Instead of thinking of the atonement in piece meal fashion, in a modern, Western, self-improvement sense of one by one improving our wekenesses, it is declaring the power of the atonement to make us strong through Jesus Christ. Thinking of weaknesses in this modern piece meal fashion is anachronistic to the Book of Mormon. Seeing our ultimate wekaness helps us step out of a myopic view of individual weaknesses to the greater view of the divine grace of Jesus to save us from that which brings all <em>weaknesses</em>, our fallen nature&#8211;only overcome through the Savior.</p>
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		<title>By: Darin</title>
		<link>http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=1009&#038;cpage=1#comment-89130</link>
		<dc:creator>Darin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2009 03:38:10 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>MCQ:

I agree that the Lord can and does change weaknesses into strengths in the way you suggest, and I don&#039;t mean to take away from this interpretation.  But I think we&#039;d be missing something important in the text of Ether 12 if we overlook the fact that we are &quot;made strong&quot; when we allow our weaknesses to humble us and turn us to the Lord.  The Lord told Moroni in verse 37:

&lt;blockquote&gt;And because thou hast seen thy weakness thou shalt be made strong, even unto the sitting down in the place which I have prepared in the mansions of my Father.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

It was Moroni&#039;s &quot;seeing&quot; of his weakness -- and his resulting humility and trust in the Lord -- that &quot;made [him] strong&quot; and led to the promise of his salvation.  I&#039;d suggest that verse 27 can be read the same way.  Moroni&#039;s weakness became a strength insofar as (1) he saw his weakness, and (2) it caused him to humble himself and exercise faith.  In this manner, even as Moroni retained the weakness, it was &quot;made strong &lt;em&gt;unto him&lt;/em&gt;.&quot;

I don&#039;t think this reading detracts one bit from the message of hope in Ether 12.  God gave us weaknesses because He loves us.  The way we respond to those weaknesses can lead us back to Him.

Thanks for the thought-provoking post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MCQ:</p>
<p>I agree that the Lord can and does change weaknesses into strengths in the way you suggest, and I don&#8217;t mean to take away from this interpretation.  But I think we&#8217;d be missing something important in the text of Ether 12 if we overlook the fact that we are &#8220;made strong&#8221; when we allow our weaknesses to humble us and turn us to the Lord.  The Lord told Moroni in verse 37:</p>
<blockquote><p>And because thou hast seen thy weakness thou shalt be made strong, even unto the sitting down in the place which I have prepared in the mansions of my Father.</p></blockquote>
<p>It was Moroni&#8217;s &#8220;seeing&#8221; of his weakness &#8212; and his resulting humility and trust in the Lord &#8212; that &#8220;made [him] strong&#8221; and led to the promise of his salvation.  I&#8217;d suggest that verse 27 can be read the same way.  Moroni&#8217;s weakness became a strength insofar as (1) he saw his weakness, and (2) it caused him to humble himself and exercise faith.  In this manner, even as Moroni retained the weakness, it was &#8220;made strong <em>unto him</em>.&#8221;</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think this reading detracts one bit from the message of hope in Ether 12.  God gave us weaknesses because He loves us.  The way we respond to those weaknesses can lead us back to Him.</p>
<p>Thanks for the thought-provoking post.</p>
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		<title>By: MCQ</title>
		<link>http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=1009&#038;cpage=1#comment-89110</link>
		<dc:creator>MCQ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Sep 2009 18:03:52 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Darin:

&lt;blockquote&gt;While I believe such transformations can and do occur, they often take a very long time. In the short term, a “weak thing” can become “strong” to us if it causes us to realize our inability to succeed without God’s help, to exercise faith, to increase the frequency and fervency of our prayers, and to seek forgiveness.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Yes, it&#039;s definitely a long process, and in the short term we can learn those things along the way, but I believe weak things only become strong when they actually, you know, &lt;strong&gt;&lt;em&gt;become strong&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;.

Linda, what you say is undoubtedly true, but words mean things.  Let&#039;s not enshrine misunderstanding as acceptable on the basis of promoting spiritual growth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Darin:</p>
<blockquote><p>While I believe such transformations can and do occur, they often take a very long time. In the short term, a “weak thing” can become “strong” to us if it causes us to realize our inability to succeed without God’s help, to exercise faith, to increase the frequency and fervency of our prayers, and to seek forgiveness.</p></blockquote>
<p>Yes, it&#8217;s definitely a long process, and in the short term we can learn those things along the way, but I believe weak things only become strong when they actually, you know, <strong><em>become strong</em></strong>.</p>
<p>Linda, what you say is undoubtedly true, but words mean things.  Let&#8217;s not enshrine misunderstanding as acceptable on the basis of promoting spiritual growth.</p>
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		<title>By: Linda</title>
		<link>http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=1009&#038;cpage=1#comment-89103</link>
		<dc:creator>Linda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Sep 2009 15:18:48 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>each person will only express their understanding of a scripture based on where their spiritual level is, basically where they are at that point in their life. As we experience different trials or circumstances, our view on scriptures change with our growth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>each person will only express their understanding of a scripture based on where their spiritual level is, basically where they are at that point in their life. As we experience different trials or circumstances, our view on scriptures change with our growth.</p>
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		<title>By: Darin</title>
		<link>http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=1009&#038;cpage=1#comment-89038</link>
		<dc:creator>Darin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 03:11:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=1009#comment-89038</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve recently come to a slightly different reading of these verses.  When the Lord says &quot;then will I make weak things become strong unto them,&quot; is it possible that He&#039;s not &lt;em&gt;only&lt;/em&gt; (or even &lt;em&gt;primarily&lt;/em&gt;) talking about changing the specific weakness into its opposite (e.g., changing someone who is easily angered into a paragon of patience)?  While I believe such transformations can and do occur, they often take a very long time.  In the short term, a &quot;weak thing&quot; can become &quot;strong&quot; to us if it causes us to realize our inability to succeed without God&#039;s help, to exercise faith, to increase the frequency and fervency of our prayers, and to seek forgiveness.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve recently come to a slightly different reading of these verses.  When the Lord says &#8220;then will I make weak things become strong unto them,&#8221; is it possible that He&#8217;s not <em>only</em> (or even <em>primarily</em>) talking about changing the specific weakness into its opposite (e.g., changing someone who is easily angered into a paragon of patience)?  While I believe such transformations can and do occur, they often take a very long time.  In the short term, a &#8220;weak thing&#8221; can become &#8220;strong&#8221; to us if it causes us to realize our inability to succeed without God&#8217;s help, to exercise faith, to increase the frequency and fervency of our prayers, and to seek forgiveness.</p>
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		<title>By: Jamal</title>
		<link>http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=1009&#038;cpage=1#comment-89011</link>
		<dc:creator>Jamal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Sep 2009 14:26:46 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>FWIW, in semitic languages such as the one the Book of Mormon text was presumably written in, one would definitely use the singular as a general expression of a category (i.e., encompassing plurals).  Of course you don&#039;t really have to go all semitic to make that conclusion, we do it in English too not infrequently.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>FWIW, in semitic languages such as the one the Book of Mormon text was presumably written in, one would definitely use the singular as a general expression of a category (i.e., encompassing plurals).  Of course you don&#8217;t really have to go all semitic to make that conclusion, we do it in English too not infrequently.</p>
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