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	<title>Comments on: Temple Recommends &#8211; Are They Needed?</title>
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		<title>By: Mark D.</title>
		<link>http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=1022&#038;cpage=1#comment-89638</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark D.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Apr 2010 01:36:05 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;em&gt;I don’t know what you mean when you say that your idea is much closer to the TR standard than mine&lt;/em&gt;

You used the word &quot;perfection&quot;.  Hence my supposition.

&lt;em&gt;note that just holding a temple recommend does not mean you have engaged in a lifetime of service and have repented of your sin&lt;/em&gt;

Agreed. Never said otherwise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>I don’t know what you mean when you say that your idea is much closer to the TR standard than mine</em></p>
<p>You used the word &#8220;perfection&#8221;.  Hence my supposition.</p>
<p><em>note that just holding a temple recommend does not mean you have engaged in a lifetime of service and have repented of your sin</em></p>
<p>Agreed. Never said otherwise.</p>
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		<title>By: MCQ</title>
		<link>http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=1022&#038;cpage=1#comment-89633</link>
		<dc:creator>MCQ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Apr 2010 08:13:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=1022#comment-89633</guid>
		<description>If you didn&#039;t say those things that you now disclaim, Mark D., then we have no disagreement, so I don&#039;t know what you mean when you say that your idea is much closer to the TR standard than mine.  I certainly have no quarrel with what you say in your final paragraph, but note that just holding a temple recommend does not mean you have engaged in a lifetime of service and have repented of your sins.  But certainly if you do those things you would presumably qualify for the celestial k.  That really obvious truth is not what we were talking about, but thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you didn&#8217;t say those things that you now disclaim, Mark D., then we have no disagreement, so I don&#8217;t know what you mean when you say that your idea is much closer to the TR standard than mine.  I certainly have no quarrel with what you say in your final paragraph, but note that just holding a temple recommend does not mean you have engaged in a lifetime of service and have repented of your sins.  But certainly if you do those things you would presumably qualify for the celestial k.  That really obvious truth is not what we were talking about, but thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark D.</title>
		<link>http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=1022&#038;cpage=1#comment-89631</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark D.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Apr 2010 00:37:58 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>MCQ, I suspect (by the way) that my idea of a entry level  standard for the celestial kingdom is much closer to the temple recommend standard than yours is. 

Or in other words, I believe that the vast majority of sincere temple recommend holders, at the end of a lifetime of service, and who have repented of their sins, are more than amply qualified to receive an inheritance in the celestial kingdom, and to continue to progress and improve there in association with the other members of such a heavenly society. Not to exclude many others who are not currently members of the church.

&lt;blockquote&gt;They are they...who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon &lt;em&gt;all those&lt;/em&gt; who are just and true. (D&amp;C 76:51-53, emphasis added)&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MCQ, I suspect (by the way) that my idea of a entry level  standard for the celestial kingdom is much closer to the temple recommend standard than yours is. </p>
<p>Or in other words, I believe that the vast majority of sincere temple recommend holders, at the end of a lifetime of service, and who have repented of their sins, are more than amply qualified to receive an inheritance in the celestial kingdom, and to continue to progress and improve there in association with the other members of such a heavenly society. Not to exclude many others who are not currently members of the church.</p>
<blockquote><p>They are they&#8230;who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon <em>all those</em> who are just and true. (D&amp;C 76:51-53, emphasis added)</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Mark D.</title>
		<link>http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=1022&#038;cpage=1#comment-89630</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark D.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Apr 2010 00:23:22 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;em&gt;Obviously, we must be able to abide a celestial law in order to inherit the celestial kingdom, but where is it said that we have to live a celestial law in mortality?&lt;/em&gt;

I don&#039;t think I made that claim. I said &quot;The temple recommend establishes in the here and now what that standard is.&quot;  Not what the standard will be, but what the standard is now to have the ecclesiastical endorsement of the church, as an individual who is doing the fundamental things that the church maintains are necessary to qualify for salvation in the celestial kingdom.

At a minimum, the church teaches that if you don&#039;t do those things, you will not qualify for an inheritance in the celestial kingdom until you do.  There are innumerable scriptures that could be cited in that respect.

&lt;em&gt;Or that the temple recommend establishes a celestial standard? I have always understood that the temple recommend standard is a minimum worthiness standard, not a celestial standard and not perfection.&lt;/em&gt;

I didn&#039;t make that claim.  I also don&#039;t think that perfection is a requirement to inherit anything. Sanctification is a much better term.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>Obviously, we must be able to abide a celestial law in order to inherit the celestial kingdom, but where is it said that we have to live a celestial law in mortality?</em></p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think I made that claim. I said &#8220;The temple recommend establishes in the here and now what that standard is.&#8221;  Not what the standard will be, but what the standard is now to have the ecclesiastical endorsement of the church, as an individual who is doing the fundamental things that the church maintains are necessary to qualify for salvation in the celestial kingdom.</p>
<p>At a minimum, the church teaches that if you don&#8217;t do those things, you will not qualify for an inheritance in the celestial kingdom until you do.  There are innumerable scriptures that could be cited in that respect.</p>
<p><em>Or that the temple recommend establishes a celestial standard? I have always understood that the temple recommend standard is a minimum worthiness standard, not a celestial standard and not perfection.</em></p>
<p>I didn&#8217;t make that claim.  I also don&#8217;t think that perfection is a requirement to inherit anything. Sanctification is a much better term.</p>
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		<title>By: Manuel</title>
		<link>http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=1022&#038;cpage=1#comment-89627</link>
		<dc:creator>Manuel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Apr 2010 17:53:27 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Paul,

Oh, don&#039;t worry about that experience.  My Bishop is not perfect (nor do I expect him to be), but he is still a very special and a very remarkable good man, and I love him, and I have a testimony he has the characteristics necessary to have spiritual stewardship over me at this point in my life.

I was just bringing my experience up, just as a reminder to everyone who reads this post, leaders, future leaders, past leaders and people who deal with leaders, that it&#039;s not all about the questions.  Anyone can figure out what the right answers are.  It&#039;s about the Spirit, and it&#039;s about helping God&#039;s children be prepared to experience a ceremonial ascension that will nourish their spirits and help them get closer to God.

I thought it was in tune with the post (and I wanted to get it out of my chest of course).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul,</p>
<p>Oh, don&#8217;t worry about that experience.  My Bishop is not perfect (nor do I expect him to be), but he is still a very special and a very remarkable good man, and I love him, and I have a testimony he has the characteristics necessary to have spiritual stewardship over me at this point in my life.</p>
<p>I was just bringing my experience up, just as a reminder to everyone who reads this post, leaders, future leaders, past leaders and people who deal with leaders, that it&#8217;s not all about the questions.  Anyone can figure out what the right answers are.  It&#8217;s about the Spirit, and it&#8217;s about helping God&#8217;s children be prepared to experience a ceremonial ascension that will nourish their spirits and help them get closer to God.</p>
<p>I thought it was in tune with the post (and I wanted to get it out of my chest of course).</p>
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		<title>By: Paul</title>
		<link>http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=1022&#038;cpage=1#comment-89624</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Apr 2010 14:16:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=1022#comment-89624</guid>
		<description>Manuel,

Sorry you (and several others) have had bad experiences with your bishop.  That&#039;s really disappointing, but I hope it is not a univeral experience.  I haven&#039;t had it.

My understanding is that the temple recommend interview is a self-declaration of our worthiness.  The interviewer can (and if properly instructed to do so) may state that he is representing the Savior, and respondents should answer as if they are answering the Savior.

The question you cite is problematic for its legalistic wording, and I have had to explain it more than once in an interview.  My explanation has been about general loyalty to the church (not specifically polygamy, though the question implies that connection).  I once had a member ask me if supporting a political party that supported abortion rights would trigger a positive answer to this question.  I said I did not think so, but offered to check with our stake president who confirmed my initial impression.

It is true that a recommend is a point-in-time statement of worthiness. And it is also true that some unworthy people attend the temple without having the temple gates crash closed before them (as I imagined in my childhood -- I don&#039;t know why).  In the end the Lord will sort out those issues of judgement, and we&#039;ll continue to do our best to be as worthy as we can to attend the temple.  And hopefully interviewers will also do their best.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Manuel,</p>
<p>Sorry you (and several others) have had bad experiences with your bishop.  That&#8217;s really disappointing, but I hope it is not a univeral experience.  I haven&#8217;t had it.</p>
<p>My understanding is that the temple recommend interview is a self-declaration of our worthiness.  The interviewer can (and if properly instructed to do so) may state that he is representing the Savior, and respondents should answer as if they are answering the Savior.</p>
<p>The question you cite is problematic for its legalistic wording, and I have had to explain it more than once in an interview.  My explanation has been about general loyalty to the church (not specifically polygamy, though the question implies that connection).  I once had a member ask me if supporting a political party that supported abortion rights would trigger a positive answer to this question.  I said I did not think so, but offered to check with our stake president who confirmed my initial impression.</p>
<p>It is true that a recommend is a point-in-time statement of worthiness. And it is also true that some unworthy people attend the temple without having the temple gates crash closed before them (as I imagined in my childhood &#8212; I don&#8217;t know why).  In the end the Lord will sort out those issues of judgement, and we&#8217;ll continue to do our best to be as worthy as we can to attend the temple.  And hopefully interviewers will also do their best.</p>
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		<title>By: MCQ</title>
		<link>http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=1022&#038;cpage=1#comment-89620</link>
		<dc:creator>MCQ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Apr 2010 07:05:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=1022#comment-89620</guid>
		<description>Nice scripture, Mark D!

But here&#039;s what you said:

&lt;blockquote&gt;The Church teaches that in order to obtain a fulness of blessings in the eternities one must at some point live up to a celestial law or standard of behavior.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I thought you meant that we had to live a celestial law at some point in mortality.  D&amp;C 88, by contrast, is talking about the law we can abide after the judgment.  Obviously, we must be able to abide a celestial law in order to inherit the celestial kingdom, but where is it said that we have to live a celestial law in mortality?  Or that the temple recommend establishes a celestial standard?  I have always understood that the temple recommend standard is a minimum worthiness standard, not a celestial standard and not perfection.

If you tell people that they have to live a celestial law in order to obtain a temple recommend, not only will you be inaccurate, you&#039;ll have a lot fewer people attending the temple.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice scripture, Mark D!</p>
<p>But here&#8217;s what you said:</p>
<blockquote><p>The Church teaches that in order to obtain a fulness of blessings in the eternities one must at some point live up to a celestial law or standard of behavior.</p></blockquote>
<p>I thought you meant that we had to live a celestial law at some point in mortality.  D&amp;C 88, by contrast, is talking about the law we can abide after the judgment.  Obviously, we must be able to abide a celestial law in order to inherit the celestial kingdom, but where is it said that we have to live a celestial law in mortality?  Or that the temple recommend establishes a celestial standard?  I have always understood that the temple recommend standard is a minimum worthiness standard, not a celestial standard and not perfection.</p>
<p>If you tell people that they have to live a celestial law in order to obtain a temple recommend, not only will you be inaccurate, you&#8217;ll have a lot fewer people attending the temple.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark D.</title>
		<link>http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=1022&#038;cpage=1#comment-89617</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark D.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Apr 2010 06:18:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=1022#comment-89617</guid>
		<description>MCQ: 

&lt;blockquote&gt;And they who are not sanctified through the law which I have given unto you, even the law of Christ, must inherit another kingdom, even that of a terrestrial kingdom, or that of a telestial kingdom.
  For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory. And he who cannot abide the law of a terrestrial kingdom cannot abide a terrestrial glory.
   And he who cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom cannot abide a telestial glory; therefore he is not meet for a kingdom of glory. Therefore he must abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory. (D&amp;C 88:21-24)&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MCQ: </p>
<blockquote><p>And they who are not sanctified through the law which I have given unto you, even the law of Christ, must inherit another kingdom, even that of a terrestrial kingdom, or that of a telestial kingdom.<br />
  For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory. And he who cannot abide the law of a terrestrial kingdom cannot abide a terrestrial glory.<br />
   And he who cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom cannot abide a telestial glory; therefore he is not meet for a kingdom of glory. Therefore he must abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory. (D&amp;C 88:21-24)</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Mommie Dearest</title>
		<link>http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=1022&#038;cpage=1#comment-89612</link>
		<dc:creator>Mommie Dearest</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Apr 2010 07:39:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=1022#comment-89612</guid>
		<description>The first time I was approved for a temple recommend, I was quite enamored by this idea that I was *worthy*, but I got over that after actually going few times and feeling not contentedly worthy, but confusion and kind of clueless. Over the years I have picked up a lot more understanding, and I agree with Tracy M, the bar is set pretty low if they let me in. Besides, its not so much about worthiness as it is about preparation. We all can fairly easily meet the minimum standard of preparing to go there, but the better prepared we are, beyond the minimum, the more we get out of our temple experience.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The first time I was approved for a temple recommend, I was quite enamored by this idea that I was *worthy*, but I got over that after actually going few times and feeling not contentedly worthy, but confusion and kind of clueless. Over the years I have picked up a lot more understanding, and I agree with Tracy M, the bar is set pretty low if they let me in. Besides, its not so much about worthiness as it is about preparation. We all can fairly easily meet the minimum standard of preparing to go there, but the better prepared we are, beyond the minimum, the more we get out of our temple experience.</p>
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		<title>By: MCQ</title>
		<link>http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=1022&#038;cpage=1#comment-89611</link>
		<dc:creator>MCQ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Apr 2010 07:14:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=1022#comment-89611</guid>
		<description>Church culture doesn&#039;t teach anything, anonymous.  Church culture is crap.  Anyone who thinks that having a temple recommend is a &quot;marker&quot; for anything other than the fact that they are allowed into the temple is deceiving themselves.  

As the OP states, TRs are not even &quot;markers&quot; for actual, present worthiness; just your worthiness at the time of the interview.  Your present worthiness is a matter between you and the Lord, and is not affected by holding a TR in any way whatsoever.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Church culture doesn&#8217;t teach anything, anonymous.  Church culture is crap.  Anyone who thinks that having a temple recommend is a &#8220;marker&#8221; for anything other than the fact that they are allowed into the temple is deceiving themselves.  </p>
<p>As the OP states, TRs are not even &#8220;markers&#8221; for actual, present worthiness; just your worthiness at the time of the interview.  Your present worthiness is a matter between you and the Lord, and is not affected by holding a TR in any way whatsoever.</p>
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