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	<title>Comments on: Tell Me Why. No, Don&#8217;t Tell Me. Yes, Tell Me.</title>
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		<title>By: John C.</title>
		<link>http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=112&#038;cpage=1#comment-211</link>
		<dc:creator>John C.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jun 2005 02:14:32 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>If you&#039;re interested, my response is up at:
http://faithpromotingrumor.blogspot.com/2005/06/spiritual-maturity-and-principle-of.html
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you&#8217;re interested, my response is up at:<br />
<a href="http://faithpromotingrumor.blogspot.com/2005/06/spiritual-maturity-and-principle-of.html" rel="nofollow">http://faithpromotingrumor.blogspot.com/2005/06/spiritual-maturity-and-principle-of.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: John C.</title>
		<link>http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=112&#038;cpage=1#comment-210</link>
		<dc:creator>John C.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:28:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=112#comment-210</guid>
		<description>&quot;&lt;i&gt;if obedience were the only requirement for this life (which is an implicit understanding in church culture), we would remain as eternal children, never able to become mature adults of understanding and intelligence&lt;/i&gt;&quot;

bboy-mike,
  I&#039;ve heard this often and I am coming to believe that it ain&#039;t so.  I&#039;ll post about it over at my site, though, as it is kind of a threadjack.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;<i>if obedience were the only requirement for this life (which is an implicit understanding in church culture), we would remain as eternal children, never able to become mature adults of understanding and intelligence</i>&#8221;</p>
<p>bboy-mike,<br />
  I&#8217;ve heard this often and I am coming to believe that it ain&#8217;t so.  I&#8217;ll post about it over at my site, though, as it is kind of a threadjack.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=112&#038;cpage=1#comment-209</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Jun 2005 02:22:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=112#comment-209</guid>
		<description>&quot;This is the difference between us and dirt.&quot;
The scriptures make this comparison as well, and they say that we are less than the dust of the earth because we do not do what the Lord asks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;This is the difference between us and dirt.&#8221;<br />
The scriptures make this comparison as well, and they say that we are less than the dust of the earth because we do not do what the Lord asks.</p>
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		<title>By: bboy-mike</title>
		<link>http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=112&#038;cpage=1#comment-208</link>
		<dc:creator>bboy-mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Jun 2005 05:02:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=112#comment-208</guid>
		<description>What about ethical dilemmas? What do you do when you&#039;re in an abusive, temple sealed marriage? Do you leave, or do you stay because of the covenant? These are real questions that people go through, and yet, if we only understood our faith through simple obedience, we&#039;d have &lt;i&gt;no idea how to act&lt;/i&gt; when faced with such a dilemma. (such dilemmas were the cause for ethics in the first place) 

That is the reason to know the why behind the command, to understand the principle is the ability to then apply that principle in different and varying circumstances with certainty; it is nearly impossible to come up with a universal application when dealing with particular circumstances.  

I reject the Divine Command Theory for the reason that if obedience were the only requirement for this life (which is an implicit understanding in church culture), we would remain as eternal children, never able to become mature adults of understanding and intelligence; we&#039;d always have to ask our &#039;bishop&#039; what to do in any difficult ethical circumstance, which is very unhealthy to one&#039;s moral development.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What about ethical dilemmas? What do you do when you&#8217;re in an abusive, temple sealed marriage? Do you leave, or do you stay because of the covenant? These are real questions that people go through, and yet, if we only understood our faith through simple obedience, we&#8217;d have <i>no idea how to act</i> when faced with such a dilemma. (such dilemmas were the cause for ethics in the first place) </p>
<p>That is the reason to know the why behind the command, to understand the principle is the ability to then apply that principle in different and varying circumstances with certainty; it is nearly impossible to come up with a universal application when dealing with particular circumstances.  </p>
<p>I reject the Divine Command Theory for the reason that if obedience were the only requirement for this life (which is an implicit understanding in church culture), we would remain as eternal children, never able to become mature adults of understanding and intelligence; we&#8217;d always have to ask our &#8216;bishop&#8217; what to do in any difficult ethical circumstance, which is very unhealthy to one&#8217;s moral development.</p>
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		<title>By: Bret</title>
		<link>http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=112&#038;cpage=1#comment-207</link>
		<dc:creator>Bret</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:46:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=112#comment-207</guid>
		<description>Great comments on a great topic! 
Remember Russ that with Abraham and other stories in the scriptures, the reason is given AFTER the test is over. (Adam offering sacrifices comes to mind) This is why I think God does a great job of mixing up &quot;blind&quot; obedience with obedience with reason. &quot;Blind&quot; obedience tests us and builds our faith, but we will always eventually be given a reason. Both are needed in this life.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great comments on a great topic!<br />
Remember Russ that with Abraham and other stories in the scriptures, the reason is given AFTER the test is over. (Adam offering sacrifices comes to mind) This is why I think God does a great job of mixing up &#8220;blind&#8221; obedience with obedience with reason. &#8220;Blind&#8221; obedience tests us and builds our faith, but we will always eventually be given a reason. Both are needed in this life.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=112&#038;cpage=1#comment-206</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jun 2005 07:24:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=112#comment-206</guid>
		<description>Rusty, this seems like a great topic for some wild speculation.  Most acts have consequences.  And most acts can be given a moral weight, good or bad.  The trick is mapping consequences onto acts and choices of acts.  Do good acts always have good consequences?  How can good acts have bad consequences?  Need there be a link between the morality of acts and the reality of consequences?

&quot;Do what is right, let the consequence follow&quot; seems like a nice statement of the ideal most of us aspire to.  So why do most Mormons try to talk themselves into this formulation: &quot;Do what is right, and good consequences will follow.&quot;  I&#039;m not sure we have any right to expect good consequences, although we can certainly be grateful when they do happen.

We can give God a hand with consequences.  I like the story (which I might mangle) of Brigham Young, who once promised some guy that if he devoted himself to collecting rags around the territory, he would be blessed.  (Rags were needed for making paper, I think.)  Two years later, the guy comes up to Brigham at a conference, reminds him of Brigham&#039;s promise, and points that he is still dirt poor in spite of doing as he was told.  Brigham&#039;s response was to pull out his checkbook and write the man a check, saying, &quot;If God won&#039;t make good on my promises, then I will.&quot;  Good for Brigham.  We can&#039;t fix all the world&#039;s problems, but if we can put a thumb on the scales and create a few good consequences for our fellows, whether they deserve it or not, we have done a good thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rusty, this seems like a great topic for some wild speculation.  Most acts have consequences.  And most acts can be given a moral weight, good or bad.  The trick is mapping consequences onto acts and choices of acts.  Do good acts always have good consequences?  How can good acts have bad consequences?  Need there be a link between the morality of acts and the reality of consequences?</p>
<p>&#8220;Do what is right, let the consequence follow&#8221; seems like a nice statement of the ideal most of us aspire to.  So why do most Mormons try to talk themselves into this formulation: &#8220;Do what is right, and good consequences will follow.&#8221;  I&#8217;m not sure we have any right to expect good consequences, although we can certainly be grateful when they do happen.</p>
<p>We can give God a hand with consequences.  I like the story (which I might mangle) of Brigham Young, who once promised some guy that if he devoted himself to collecting rags around the territory, he would be blessed.  (Rags were needed for making paper, I think.)  Two years later, the guy comes up to Brigham at a conference, reminds him of Brigham&#8217;s promise, and points that he is still dirt poor in spite of doing as he was told.  Brigham&#8217;s response was to pull out his checkbook and write the man a check, saying, &#8220;If God won&#8217;t make good on my promises, then I will.&#8221;  Good for Brigham.  We can&#8217;t fix all the world&#8217;s problems, but if we can put a thumb on the scales and create a few good consequences for our fellows, whether they deserve it or not, we have done a good thing.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeffrey Giliam</title>
		<link>http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=112&#038;cpage=1#comment-205</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeffrey Giliam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jun 2005 02:01:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=112#comment-205</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m saying that we should wholly submit our will to what is right, just as God Himself has done.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m saying that we should wholly submit our will to what is right, just as God Himself has done.</p>
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		<title>By: Geoff J</title>
		<link>http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=112&#038;cpage=1#comment-204</link>
		<dc:creator>Geoff J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jun 2005 01:49:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=112#comment-204</guid>
		<description>Good thoughts Rusty.  These are the very same concepts I have been toying with in my recent &lt;a href=&quot;http://newcoolthang.com/index.php/2005/06/strict-obedience-dumbos-feather/84/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Dumbo&#039;s Feather&lt;/a&gt; post (looking for reasons) and &lt;a href=&quot;http://newcoolthang.com/index.php/2005/06/earrings-and-coffee/86/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Bound to Our Leaders&lt;/a&gt; post..  I have another one brewin&#039; inside too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good thoughts Rusty.  These are the very same concepts I have been toying with in my recent <a href="http://newcoolthang.com/index.php/2005/06/strict-obedience-dumbos-feather/84/" rel="nofollow">Dumbo&#8217;s Feather</a> post (looking for reasons) and <a href="http://newcoolthang.com/index.php/2005/06/earrings-and-coffee/86/" rel="nofollow">Bound to Our Leaders</a> post..  I have another one brewin&#8217; inside too.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Russell</title>
		<link>http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=112&#038;cpage=1#comment-203</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Russell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jun 2005 01:46:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=112#comment-203</guid>
		<description>Rusty, 

I agree with you. Pres. Hinckley’s reasons didn’t seem very strong to me. After rereading it a few times, I decided Hinckley wasn’t really giving The Reasons why gambling is wrong. Rather, he was simply saying it’s wrong, and made a few supporting comments.

Joe, 

I did not understand Hinckley ever to say that poker itself was wrong. Only gambling was spoken of in the GC talk. 

Jeffrey, 

I agree that God doesn’t want us to completely hand over our agency to him, because that is impossible. Agency is a fundamental property of our being, and cannot be given away or taken away. But are you saying that we shouldn’t use our agency to wholly submit to God’s will?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rusty, </p>
<p>I agree with you. Pres. Hinckley’s reasons didn’t seem very strong to me. After rereading it a few times, I decided Hinckley wasn’t really giving The Reasons why gambling is wrong. Rather, he was simply saying it’s wrong, and made a few supporting comments.</p>
<p>Joe, </p>
<p>I did not understand Hinckley ever to say that poker itself was wrong. Only gambling was spoken of in the GC talk. </p>
<p>Jeffrey, </p>
<p>I agree that God doesn’t want us to completely hand over our agency to him, because that is impossible. Agency is a fundamental property of our being, and cannot be given away or taken away. But are you saying that we shouldn’t use our agency to wholly submit to God’s will?</p>
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		<title>By: John C.</title>
		<link>http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=112&#038;cpage=1#comment-202</link>
		<dc:creator>John C.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jun 2005 01:43:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=112#comment-202</guid>
		<description>I think the &quot;Obedience is the 1st law&quot; thing is inferred from Abraham 3:24-26.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the &#8220;Obedience is the 1st law&#8221; thing is inferred from Abraham 3:24-26.</p>
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