We’re not teaching it as effectively as we should be because most people are not getting it.

Granted that none of us are teaching it as effectively as we should, that we all need to improve on that aspect, but your evidence for that conclusion is most people are not getting it does not follow from the evidence.

The actual evidence that you presented via the song and the quotes indicate that people are not getting it because they do not want to change. I presented a real life example of such an one, and another real life example of two others who did desire to change while receiving the same message in the same environment.
Over the years I have seen this same scenario played out over and over. A person begins receiving the discussions and are receiving spiritual conformation that what they are hearing is true. However, when they learn “the rest of the story”, they find something that does not sit tight with them and walk away. This actually happens more time than it does not.
Yet there are those who do receive that same spiritual confirmation and when they hear “the rest of the story”, they realize that there is nothing of an earthly nature that they have to give up that can compare with the things that God has in store for them.

If there is any place that we, as a church, are falling down, it is in the aftercare that the new converts receive.

Or there may be those who are like the son of Alma the younger, Corianton, whose bad example was a detriment to the missionary efforts of Alma and his other son among the Zoramites.

And in that vein, I think you are correct, that we as LDS need to let the way we live the Gospel and treat our fellow man, to let our “light so shine before men, that they may see (y)our good works, and glorify (y)our Father which is in heaven.” (From Matthew 5:16) And we need to do it better.

Thanks for the dialog and the food for though.

Glenn

Just giving the discussions does not necessarily communicate love, nor is every missionary good at communicating that love just because they happen to be on a full-time mission.

In your example, why would the young man you taught want to change from being a womanizer? You made no mention of giving him any reason to do so. You just said you told him that was a requirement and then he backed off. That’s exactly the problem I’m talking about, Glenn. You never showed him any reason why he would want to change that part (or any part) of his behavior.

You do not know that at all. You are making some assumptions. The young man in question really felt, or at least said and indicated that he felt loved by God, felt the church was true, and had a wonderful relationship with the young adult group. That message of love and friendship was what really attracted him to the church. He had received the discussions God’s plan of salvation, the Atonement by Jesus, etc. He had no problem with the concept of tithing and the other doctrines that he had heard. No problem with the Word of Wisdom. He seemed to have but the one stumbling block that he could not or would not overcome. He was still friends and friendly with the young adults when I departed the area.
Contrast this with another young man that the missionaries tracted into. He was heavy into the drug scene, he and his girl friend and was living the life he wanted until he heard the message the missionaries had for him. He was able to give up the drugs, alcohol, and free love life that he had been living. The young adult group welcomed him into their midst and his girl friend also eventually followed, took the lessons, and joined the young adult activities.
All three of those young people heard the same messages, consorted with the same group of young adults, but chose different paths.

No, they should have back-pedaled and told that young man that God loves him and wants him and that the other young men in the ward love him and want him to be with them. Just saying those words alone is not enough, people need to feel the truth of them, but saying them is a start, and it’s something we don’t do enough.

Now, I will be one of the first to admit that I am not perfect and that the missionaries are not perfect, nor is anyone else that I know. Yet I will dare say that the missionaries as a whole come the closest to showing that pure love of Christ that sends them out into the world for two years to try to spread the message of God’s love. This was the message that all three of those young people heard in the very first meeting with the missionaries.

I don’t think those missionaries needed to back pedal to say something that they had been saying all along, nor do I think that young adult group needed to back pedal to show a love they had been showing all along.

So who are the “we” you are speaking of? What blueprint can you give us beyond “God loves you and wants you to be with him”?

Glenn

Should the missionaries have back pedaled and told that young man that what he was doing was okay? Not to worry about it?

No, they should have back-pedaled and told that young man that God loves him and wants him and that the other young men in the ward love him and want him to be with them. Just saying those words alone is not enough, people need to feel the truth of them, but saying them is a start, and it’s something we don’t do enough.

I said in #14:

BTW, the quote from the band’s guitarist in the post above is not a quote I agree with. Telling people they’re perfect the way they are is flattering, but ultimately rings false to most people. People know they’re not perfect the way they are. But they need to feel accepted and loved the way they are before they can find the strength to change.

If you’re not going to pay attention to the discussion, thenm there’s no purpose in talking to you.

The point of this post is that people are being asked to change without FIRST getting the message that we love them and God loves them. Do you understand the word FIRST?

I’m not saying to tell them they don’t need to change. I’m saying give them the context they require in order to want to change.

My point is that most people are not motivated to change their lives just because you ask them to, or just because it’s a requirement to get into your club (whether that club is Heaven or the Church). They are motivated to change only when they understand and feel God loves them and wants them to return to him and that change is requires to be the person that they want to be: the person who can stand in God’s presence with others who love and need them. You have to link the desire to change to something they actually desire. Membership in the club isn’t enough for true change of behavior, especially if you are asking them to give up ingrained behavior.

In your example, why would the young man you taught want to change from being a womanizer? You made no mention of giving him any reason to do so. You just said you told him that was a requirement and then he backed off. That’s exactly the problem I’m talking about, Glenn. You never showed him any reason why he would want to change that part (or any part) of his behavior.

You have to give people a reason to change, not just tell them they need to do it in order to qualify for membership in your stupid club. Unless people actually feel the love of God and the love of others in the Church, there’s no reason for them to change their lives in any significant way.

We’re not teaching it as effectively as we should be because most people are not getting it.

Here’s a quote from one of the band members about the song:

“The song comes from the belief that you are perfect the way you are and if anyone thinks differently, you probably don’t need them in your life,” says O.A.R. guitarist Richard On.

Is this the message that we must promulgate in order to be “more effective” in spreading the word about God’s love? That people are perfect just the way they are? That they do not have to change anything to be included in the Celestial Kingdom?

MCQ, I am afraid that many do not accept God’s word, God’s religion because they are getting the message effectively, and that message is one they do not want to hear. The message that there are things that they need to change, that they are not perfect the way they are.
I am not talking about the superficial things, such as how one dresses or styles their hair, but the things that God has said that must be changed.
I will give you an example. A young man I knew was taking the missionary discussions. He was welcomed into the young adult group in the ward and had participated in many of our activities. However, when the missionaries taught him the lesson on the law of chastity, it all came to an abrupt end. He was a womanizer and just felt that he could not give that aspect of his life up. It was not the message of God’s love that he did not receive, but the message of change that he did receive which turned him aside.
Should the missionaries have back pedaled and told that young man that what he was doing was okay? Not to worry about it?

I think that the line would better read, “I don’t want to go to heaven if I have to change anything since I am already perfect the way I am.”

Glenn

I am not sure how you feel that we are not teaching the message of God’s love as effectively as we should be. I think that this is happening more after we have baptized a new convert rather than in the missionary phase.

We’re not teaching it as effectively as we should be because most people are not getting it. That’s why people say the things that they say about not wanting to associate with organized religion (including our Church) and say the things this song is saying. Things like our involvement in prop 8 and other hateful divisive campaigns haven’t helped. By contrast, the Church’s stance on immigration HAS helped and I thank God for that.

What happens after baptism is not what I’m talking about here. I’m talking about breaking through the barriers to get people interested in our Church (or religion in general) in the first place, and sending the right message so that they continue to want to hear more after they hear our initial message. I think our initial approach has to be about love and acceptance. It’s only after someone feels loved and accepted that they are motivated to improve their lives and change for the better.

I feel like I’ve said all this before.

I am saying that the message that “that God loves you and wants you in His Church” is the the part of the Gospel message. That message is being taught in the missionary discussions, in the investigator classes, etc (among other things).
I am not sure how you feel that we are not teaching the message of God’s love as effectively as we should be. I think that this is happening more after we have baptized a new convert rather than in the missionary phase.
I think that a continuing sincere show of love by the general membership in each of the Wards and branches can do more than any other type of message of love. And in that, I do believe we need to be more effective. Home and visiting teaching records would bear this out, I do believe.
But all of the love in the world (or out of it) cannot make someone “right” who does not wish to be. I present Lucifer as my star example.

Glenn

I’m not at all sure what you are trying to say. If The things that you are saying are “the gospel message” are that God loves you and wants you in His Church are not getting through to most people. That’s my point. We are not teaching these things nearly as effectively as we need to be.

The Gospel message is here is what the Lord has in store for you, and here is what you have to do to obtain it.

I don’t agree that’s the Gospel message.

Glenn