Whoever said the thing about the the Spirit working in clearly male priesthood terms, could you point me to some of those? Is this what you were trying to point to, GreenEggz? Or were you just looking at various descriptors but not commenting on them? ‘Cause none of these seem gender-specific to me.
Kurt, I’ve read through your post several times and your references. Still not convinced that we “know” that the Holy Ghost is male, from Nephi or otherwise.
The use of the same phrase does not necessarily mean that each speaker/gospel writer (even prophet) had the same meaning in mind. For a godhead-specific example of this, look at scriptural (even BOM) use of the term Father if you want to see how confusing and not explicit that can be. Sometimes the Father is Jesus the Son, who becomes our spiritual Father and we his children and heirs of the same promise through the atonement, and sometimes the Father is God the Father.
I still think the Nephi Tree-of-Life vision Spirit of the Lord is the pre-mortal Spirit of Christ (1 Ne 11). The fact that no one in all of scripture ever claims to see the Holy Ghost in human form (rather than in the sign of the dove or as a tongue(s)of fire) seems to support the unlikelihood that Nephi did either.
Also, why would the Spirit disappear (v 12)and an angel take that Spirit’s place right before the vision of Christ’s birth is shown if that Spirit is not Christ’s premortal Spirit? That would make absolutely no sense.
To me it makes more sense to assume that the Spirit of the Lord means that Jesus himself was speaking with Nephi in Spirit (pre-mortal)form. Nephi later testifies that he, and his brother Jacob, both saw Christ as Isaiah had (2 Nephi 11:2-3). The Tree of Life vision is the only account we have of Nephi seeing Christ, and his comparison to Isaiah means to me that he (and Jacob) not only saw, but also interacted with and was taught by the Savior as Isaiah had been.
In the Tree of Life vision, the Spirit of the Lord seems to (by the timing of his disappearance) make clear that he is the Promised Messiah as the vision unfolds. The Doctrine & Covenants, Isaiah, Revelation (as just three examples) are full of examples of Jesus testifying of himself in the 3rd person.
Also the angel’s use of the statement “Knowest thou the condescension of God?” (vs 16 & v 26) makes less sense if Nephi had not been given some understanding of Christ’s premortal glory to see what the Lord “condescended” to by entering mortality as we all do, and walking among us, and serving us.
For any who missed the significance of this discussion, the apparently gender significant verses are 1 Ne 11:10, 13. In these two instances, the “Spirit of the Lord” Nephi refers to is twice assigned the pronoun he. I don’t know in what phase of the translation process that gender assignment occurred (ie if it is here a language issue or a theological issue), but because I believe that this is Christ rather than the Holy Ghost, the gender of the Holy Ghost remains undefined in my view.
Even if it turned out to be the Holy Ghost, “in the form of a man” in v.12 could simply mean in human form–similar to the phrase “as one man speaketh with another” (same verse). It’s not gender exclusive.
(Tangent–Of course you don’t think the statement about Christ not appearing to the Gentile except by the Holy Spirit doesn’t mean that Nephi could not have actually seen Christ, right? He’s ostensibly of the House of Israel first of all. Second, there are many scriptural examples of individuals who did see Christ. Of course the Holy Ghost plays a role even in those revelations. But it doesn’t mean someone can’t actually see or interact with Christ. And as stated above, Nephi states that he, Jacob, and Isaiah all saw Christ.)
At any rate, it’s not a deal breaker for me either way. But I think it is very important that we not make assumptions that have not been revealed (ie Holy Ghost’s gender). As for the NT and the Gospel of John, my understanding is that in Greek and Hebrew all the pronouns for the Holy Spirit are female. Those may well be linguistic aberrations of their own, so I don’t know that we know how Christ referred to the Holy Spirit. And the Bible Dictionary does not assign a gender to the Holy Spirit. This seems like something to me that if it were known, it would be clearly doctrinally defined.
Moving on, what do you all think of the phrase in 1 Nephi 20:16 “the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me [Jesus Christ]“?
What do you all think of denying the Holy Ghost being a greater offense than denying Christ? (As Peter did and was forgiven for even in advance?)]]>
Last Lemming: The Proclamation answers your question very clearly.]]>
Some assume the “Spirit of the Lord” means the pre-mortal spirit of Jesus Christ. This is not the case. In 1:12 we have Lehi filled with the “Spirit of the Lord” and in 15:12 we have “the Spirit of the Lord which was in [Lehi]“. Such descriptions would be reserved for the Holy Spirit, and not the pre-mortal spirit personage of Jesus Christ.
Then in 13:15 Nephi says “I beheld the Spirit of the Lord, that it was upon the Gentiles”. Now, 3 Ne. 15:23 states:
And they understood me not that I said they shall hear my voice; and they understood me not that the Gentiles should not at any time hear my voice that I should not manifest myself unto them save it were by the Holy Ghost.
Thus, the “Spirit of the Lord” must be the Holy Spirit as the Lord will never manifest Himself personally to the Gentiles except by the Holy Spirit.
Furthermore, the phrase is repeatedly used in the OT synonymously with the Holy Spirit. Take for example Isa. 11:2 and Isa. 61:1 which state the Messiah will be anointed by the Spirit of the Lord.
Finally, if we look at what this present spirit says in v. 6-7 we see him bearing witness of the Son of God. This is the kind of thing the Holy Spirit would say (cp. 3 Ne. 11:32), not the kind of thing the Lord himself would say (ct. Ether 3:11-16).
With respect to your assertions regarding the Priesthood going to women being fundamental and the whole purpose of the Temple, I completely disagree, but this isnt the thread for addressing that issue.]]>
Does anybody have any scriptural or even anecdotal evidence of Women receiving the PH after resurrection? I’m not asking in a doubting manner. A lot of this goes aroung the ‘Nacle but I haven’t read anything that really convinces me this is true. Sorry if this is a threadjack–it might need its own post.]]>
I don’t think any of us know specifically why particular people were ex’d. Toscano’s Paradox book had other glaring criticisms of church leaders, etc. that could have ex’d her sans any speculation about theology.
Agree w/ priesthood (power of God) not being gender specific–particularly post-earth-life and after final judgment/ when we receive our glorified bodies. Also w/ the Godhead being gender balanced.]]>