Comments on: Alternatives to Geoff’s MMPs http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=266 Tue, 21 May 2013 21:34:39 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.1 By: Gunner http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=266&cpage=1#comment-4432 Gunner Wed, 04 Oct 2006 04:25:51 +0000 http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=266#comment-4432 I highly recommend you all read Volume 2 of Doctrines of Salvation by Joesph Fielding Smith the Prophet. Most importantly the first three chapters in that book. Although it doesn't answer all your questions it will give some excellent insights. As anything else either from God, Prophet, scripture or SS teacher you should always ponder and then pray about it and let the holy spirt teach you truth and light including the mysteries of God. I highly recommend you all read Volume 2 of Doctrines of Salvation by Joesph Fielding Smith the Prophet. Most importantly the first three chapters in that book. Although it doesn’t answer all your questions it will give some excellent insights. As anything else either from God, Prophet, scripture or SS teacher you should always ponder and then pray about it and let the holy spirt teach you truth and light including the mysteries of God.

]]> By: Jason http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=266&cpage=1#comment-3386 Jason Mon, 08 May 2006 20:22:30 +0000 http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=266#comment-3386 That makes sense, that we all have the capacity to be exalted (some more than others). It explains what Joseph and Oliver taught about the potential of the human race. But, me being here in Iraq, away from civilization for so long, I see that there are some people that really are stupid. In Mexico (on my mission) I saw the same thing. Maybe it's because I don't understand everything from their past. Or maybe it's because they really are of a "lower intelligence". I don't know. (and that statement kind of makes me sound racist and bigoted, which I try not to be) If we were all created with the equal capacity for godhood, then that would indicate to me that there is a lot of retrogression. I still think my theory of this earth-life as a proving-ground for the "exaltation-worthy" holds true. That makes sense, that we all have the capacity to be exalted (some more than others). It explains what Joseph and Oliver taught about the potential of the human race.

But, me being here in Iraq, away from civilization for so long, I see that there are some people that really are stupid. In Mexico (on my mission) I saw the same thing. Maybe it’s because I don’t understand everything from their past. Or maybe it’s because they really are of a “lower intelligence”. I don’t know. (and that statement kind of makes me sound racist and bigoted, which I try not to be)

If we were all created with the equal capacity for godhood, then that would indicate to me that there is a lot of retrogression.

I still think my theory of this earth-life as a proving-ground for the “exaltation-worthy” holds true.

]]> By: don http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=266&cpage=1#comment-3385 don Mon, 08 May 2006 20:03:47 +0000 http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=266#comment-3385 Jason, I don't have a problem with intellengces being un-equal, nor for that matter that spirits are un-equal (which I think is what Abraham was referring to if read carefully). What I still hold firm to is that all of God's spirit children had, at one time the capacity to become like God. I don't beleive that any of God's spirit children were so deprived, so inept, so "un-intellengent", so as not to have the capacity to be exalted. Thru our agency we may have made choices so that we don't qualify to be exalted. If some of God's spirit children were created so as not to have the capacity to be exalted, then it would in fact be God's fault...He created them that way...that's why I'm trying to get across. I can't blame God for who/what I am. I can't blame God for my failure to be exalted. Jason, I don’t have a problem with intellengces being un-equal, nor for that matter that spirits are un-equal (which I think is what Abraham was referring to if read carefully). What I still hold firm to is that all of God’s spirit children had, at one time the capacity to become like God.

I don’t beleive that any of God’s spirit children were so deprived, so inept, so “un-intellengent”, so as not to have the capacity to be exalted. Thru our agency we may have made choices so that we don’t qualify to be exalted.

If some of God’s spirit children were created so as not to have the capacity to be exalted, then it would in fact be God’s fault…He created them that way…that’s why I’m trying to get across. I can’t blame God for who/what I am. I can’t blame God for my failure to be exalted.

]]> By: Jason http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=266&cpage=1#comment-3384 Jason Mon, 08 May 2006 19:26:56 +0000 http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=266#comment-3384 HP and Don. One of the fundamental truths found in the scriptures is that intelligences are inherenty unequal. God teaches Abraham that truth in Abraham 3. (reference the "two spirits", one above another, and another above them, etc etc etc until we get to God) This hierarchy of eternally unique intelligences is something we have to grasp for this discussion, because if, in the beginning, every single intelligence was a mirror image of all the others, they would have all progressed at the exact same rate, and become more or less the exact same machine. Any more or any less -- any differences in ones final status and progression would be seen (to use your argument, don) as the workings of an unjust God. I see this misunderstanding as the basic need for the MMP solution (of course, the logistical aspect of the MMP is intriguing). Yes, Eternal Uniqueness of our intelligences, their fundamental capacities, abilities, personalities, etc is central to understanding our lives here, and in the future. God took those intelligences and formed our spirit bodies. His purpose is to make the most out of each of those unequal spirits. And he loves each of them completely. But, as has been pointed out, some of those intelligences just don't have the capacity to attain exaltation. Which makes M. Butler's solution, which is the classic solution taught in the church, very understandable. HP and Don. One of the fundamental truths found in the scriptures is that intelligences are inherenty unequal. God teaches Abraham that truth in Abraham 3. (reference the “two spirits”, one above another, and another above them, etc etc etc until we get to God)

This hierarchy of eternally unique intelligences is something we have to grasp for this discussion, because if, in the beginning, every single intelligence was a mirror image of all the others, they would have all progressed at the exact same rate, and become more or less the exact same machine. Any more or any less — any differences in ones final status and progression would be seen (to use your argument, don) as the workings of an unjust God. I see this misunderstanding as the basic need for the MMP solution (of course, the logistical aspect of the MMP is intriguing).

Yes, Eternal Uniqueness of our intelligences, their fundamental capacities, abilities, personalities, etc is central to understanding our lives here, and in the future. God took those intelligences and formed our spirit bodies.

His purpose is to make the most out of each of those unequal spirits. And he loves each of them completely.

But, as has been pointed out, some of those intelligences just don’t have the capacity to attain exaltation.

Which makes M. Butler’s solution, which is the classic solution taught in the church, very understandable.

]]> By: Ginger http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=266&cpage=1#comment-3383 Ginger Sun, 07 May 2006 21:37:21 +0000 http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=266#comment-3383 Don- this is a way late post, but in regards to your using the prodigal son as an idea of why all would be exalted... The prodigal son came back on his own... Not everyone will do that. In fact, we are taught that the personality we have here is the one we will have in the eternities (or something like that) I am not too sure some of these Islamic terrorists want to become good, and return to God's true teachings... so they wouldn't fit the same category as the Prodigal son. Don- this is a way late post, but in regards to your using the prodigal son as an idea of why all would be exalted… The prodigal son came back on his own… Not everyone will do that. In fact, we are taught that the personality we have here is the one we will have in the eternities (or something like that) I am not too sure some of these Islamic terrorists want to become good, and return to God’s true teachings… so they wouldn’t fit the same category as the Prodigal son.

]]> By: don http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=266&cpage=1#comment-3382 don Sat, 06 May 2006 20:58:48 +0000 http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=266#comment-3382 One clarification: I'm not saying I believe what I've posted as far as moving between kingdoms. Personally I've not seen enough evidence to determine whether it's possible or not. What I am saying is it's possible. If it is then it answers the questions Geoff brings up about Telestial planets and MMPs. One clarification: I’m not saying I believe what I’ve posted as far as moving between kingdoms. Personally I’ve not seen enough evidence to determine whether it’s possible or not.

What I am saying is it’s possible. If it is then it answers the questions Geoff brings up about Telestial planets and MMPs.

]]> By: don http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=266&cpage=1#comment-3381 don Sat, 06 May 2006 20:55:35 +0000 http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=266#comment-3381 Geoff, I think your questions about Telestial penal planets has been answered here by me and others. First, it's not a penal planet, it's glorious. But more to the point is if after death we can still progress then Telestial planets don't matter. We spend time learning what we need to learn, watching God be God, having Him instruct, correct and teach us to be like Him. We then become Gods. What's the problem? Geoff, I think your questions about Telestial penal planets has been answered here by me and others. First, it’s not a penal planet, it’s glorious. But more to the point is if after death we can still progress then Telestial planets don’t matter.

We spend time learning what we need to learn, watching God be God, having Him instruct, correct and teach us to be like Him. We then become Gods. What’s the problem?

]]> By: don http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=266&cpage=1#comment-3380 don Sat, 06 May 2006 20:46:42 +0000 http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=266#comment-3380 Jeff, you said: "Another point is that having a once and for all probation seems to presuppose a infinite judgement which will be infinite in duration. This simply does not match up with anything even close to what we consider to be justice. Instead of simply getting 3-5 years for grand theft, you are advocating life in prison, but a prison which is not so bad. This seems absolutely reprehensible." This point of view seems to me to be the same expressed by Nephi where he warned us about eat drink and be merry, God will beat us with a few stripes and we'll all be saved in the end. What's the difference between 3-5 years and beat with a few stripes? My question is why is everyone so scared of a final judgment, that is infinite...made by a God who has had eons and eons of experience with you? Jeff, you said: “Another point is that having a once and for all probation seems to presuppose a infinite judgement which will be infinite in duration. This simply does not match up with anything even close to what we consider to be justice. Instead of simply getting 3-5 years for grand theft, you are advocating life in prison, but a prison which is not so bad. This seems absolutely reprehensible.”

This point of view seems to me to be the same expressed by Nephi where he warned us about eat drink and be merry, God will beat us with a few stripes and we’ll all be saved in the end. What’s the difference between 3-5 years and beat with a few stripes?

My question is why is everyone so scared of a final judgment, that is infinite…made by a God who has had eons and eons of experience with you?

]]> By: don http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=266&cpage=1#comment-3379 don Sat, 06 May 2006 20:39:50 +0000 http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=266#comment-3379 Eric, I agree not all intellegences are equal, nor are all spirits equal, but all have the fundamental capacity to be exalted. If we didn't have the capacity to be exalted then our failure could be blamed on God. Eric, I agree not all intellegences are equal, nor are all spirits equal, but all have the fundamental capacity to be exalted. If we didn’t have the capacity to be exalted then our failure could be blamed on God.

]]> By: don http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=266&cpage=1#comment-3378 don Sat, 06 May 2006 20:38:12 +0000 http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=266#comment-3378 HP, God did create us in the same way he created the earth...he organized us using existing stuff! HP, God did create us in the same way he created the earth…he organized us using existing stuff!

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