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	<title>Comments on: There Are No Female &#8216;Celebrity&#8217; Designers Because They Have Babies Instead</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.nine-moons.com/?feed=rss2&#038;p=392" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=392</link>
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		<title>By: ECS</title>
		<link>http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=392&#038;cpage=1#comment-5590</link>
		<dc:creator>ECS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Dec 2006 13:03:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nine-moons.com/2006/12/14/there-are-no-female-celebrity-designers-because-they-have-babies-instead/#comment-5590</guid>
		<description>The NY Times ran an interesting &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/17/business/yourmoney/17csuite.html?ei=5094&amp;en=f5a250fe7f24f30d&amp;hp=&amp;ex=1166418000&amp;adxnnl=1&amp;partner=homepage&amp;adxnnlx=1166360430-m6gFEdEcih05Y9c9eFYCQA&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;article today about just this issue: 

&lt;blockquote&gt;Despite her hard-won reputation as an astute businesswoman, Ms. Bartz found herself repeatedly skipped over during a recent meeting of business and political leaders in Washington. The reason was that the men at the table assumed that she was an office assistant, not a fellow executive. “Happens all of the time,” Ms. Bartz says dryly, recalling the incident. “Sometimes I stand up. Sometimes I just ignore it.”&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The NY Times ran an interesting <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/17/business/yourmoney/17csuite.html?ei=5094&amp;en=f5a250fe7f24f30d&amp;hp=&amp;ex=1166418000&amp;adxnnl=1&amp;partner=homepage&amp;adxnnlx=1166360430-m6gFEdEcih05Y9c9eFYCQA" rel="nofollow">article today about just this issue: </p>
<blockquote><p>Despite her hard-won reputation as an astute businesswoman, Ms. Bartz found herself repeatedly skipped over during a recent meeting of business and political leaders in Washington. The reason was that the men at the table assumed that she was an office assistant, not a fellow executive. “Happens all of the time,” Ms. Bartz says dryly, recalling the incident. “Sometimes I stand up. Sometimes I just ignore it.”</p></blockquote>
<p></a></p>
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		<title>By: Kurt</title>
		<link>http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=392&#038;cpage=1#comment-5585</link>
		<dc:creator>Kurt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Dec 2006 03:31:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nine-moons.com/2006/12/14/there-are-no-female-celebrity-designers-because-they-have-babies-instead/#comment-5585</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;consider the fact that almost every community has celebrities (think bloggernacle)&lt;/i&gt;

Just curious, who do you think the bloggernacle celebrities are?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>consider the fact that almost every community has celebrities (think bloggernacle)</i></p>
<p>Just curious, who do you think the bloggernacle celebrities are?</p>
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		<title>By: Seth R.</title>
		<link>http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=392&#038;cpage=1#comment-5581</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth R.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Dec 2006 20:44:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nine-moons.com/2006/12/14/there-are-no-female-celebrity-designers-because-they-have-babies-instead/#comment-5581</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d prefer a model where both parents worked as part-time professionals, telecommuted, etc in order to provide adequate care for the children while still contributing to society in a balanced fashion.

But then again, as a solo-practice lawyer and entrepeneur, maybe it&#039;s easier for me to see these kind of possibilities.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d prefer a model where both parents worked as part-time professionals, telecommuted, etc in order to provide adequate care for the children while still contributing to society in a balanced fashion.</p>
<p>But then again, as a solo-practice lawyer and entrepeneur, maybe it&#8217;s easier for me to see these kind of possibilities.</p>
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		<title>By: cj douglass</title>
		<link>http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=392&#038;cpage=1#comment-5578</link>
		<dc:creator>cj douglass</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Dec 2006 16:48:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nine-moons.com/2006/12/14/there-are-no-female-celebrity-designers-because-they-have-babies-instead/#comment-5578</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;cj douglas - I’ve met Rusty. He’s not intimidated by confident, independent women.&lt;/em&gt;

ECS,
I LOL when I read this but I&#039;m still not sure if you meant it to be funny. I think it underlines the frustration i&#039;ve felt in this discussion. Rusty suggests I don&#039;t use anecdotes and then recommends what he would do in a situation which is somehow supposed to be representative of how the general public feels. I would expect Rusty to enbody all the good aspects of society. While anecdotes and such are not the same as a statistical analysis(and can sometimes lead us astray), I&#039;m not sure Rusty has offered a sufficient alternative. After all, isn&#039;t this statement by Milton Glazer giving  the same kind of analysis I have?

&lt;em&gt;The reason there are so few female rock star graphic designers is that women get pregnant, have children, go home and take care of their children.&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>cj douglas &#8211; I’ve met Rusty. He’s not intimidated by confident, independent women.</em></p>
<p>ECS,<br />
I LOL when I read this but I&#8217;m still not sure if you meant it to be funny. I think it underlines the frustration i&#8217;ve felt in this discussion. Rusty suggests I don&#8217;t use anecdotes and then recommends what he would do in a situation which is somehow supposed to be representative of how the general public feels. I would expect Rusty to enbody all the good aspects of society. While anecdotes and such are not the same as a statistical analysis(and can sometimes lead us astray), I&#8217;m not sure Rusty has offered a sufficient alternative. After all, isn&#8217;t this statement by Milton Glazer giving  the same kind of analysis I have?</p>
<p><em>The reason there are so few female rock star graphic designers is that women get pregnant, have children, go home and take care of their children.</em></p>
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		<title>By: Tatiana</title>
		<link>http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=392&#038;cpage=1#comment-5568</link>
		<dc:creator>Tatiana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Dec 2006 05:59:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nine-moons.com/2006/12/14/there-are-no-female-celebrity-designers-because-they-have-babies-instead/#comment-5568</guid>
		<description>I see gender discrimination in my workplaces all the time.  It&#039;s absolutely pervasive, in fact.  It is gradually getting better over time.  I&#039;ve worked in technical and technological fields now for about 25 years, and feel a bit less like a circus freak now.  =)  Still, these sort of statements continue to floor me.  

I think anecdotes illustrate this well.  I&#039;ve been an engineer for 20 years, and two guys at the shop not long ago were goggling because I .... get this.... *used a tape measure* (gasp).  I really had hoped we were past that.  =) I wonder what they would think if they&#039;d seen me rebuilding my Land Cruiser&#039;s brakes a few years back, or turning spacers for my skate bearings on the lathe?  None of these things are the slightest bit unfeminine.  It&#039;s just the weird conventions of our society make a lot fewer opportunities for girls to be exposed to many of these things.  As children, girls generally love building toys like lego, k&#039;nex, no-ends, etc. as much as boys do.  Why more of them don&#039;t grow up to build things for a living, I don&#039;t know, but the change happens around puberty, when they&#039;re receiving strong messages about conformity and what is and isn&#039;t attractive in a girl.  

I don&#039;t buy the childrearing argument as the reason for such gender-disparity in celebs of any field.  It seems clear to me that it comes far more from our perceptions of what a superstar designer or chef or engineer *should* be like.  When our perceptions change, we&#039;ll find that the conventions will too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see gender discrimination in my workplaces all the time.  It&#8217;s absolutely pervasive, in fact.  It is gradually getting better over time.  I&#8217;ve worked in technical and technological fields now for about 25 years, and feel a bit less like a circus freak now.  =)  Still, these sort of statements continue to floor me.  </p>
<p>I think anecdotes illustrate this well.  I&#8217;ve been an engineer for 20 years, and two guys at the shop not long ago were goggling because I &#8230;. get this&#8230;. *used a tape measure* (gasp).  I really had hoped we were past that.  =) I wonder what they would think if they&#8217;d seen me rebuilding my Land Cruiser&#8217;s brakes a few years back, or turning spacers for my skate bearings on the lathe?  None of these things are the slightest bit unfeminine.  It&#8217;s just the weird conventions of our society make a lot fewer opportunities for girls to be exposed to many of these things.  As children, girls generally love building toys like lego, k&#8217;nex, no-ends, etc. as much as boys do.  Why more of them don&#8217;t grow up to build things for a living, I don&#8217;t know, but the change happens around puberty, when they&#8217;re receiving strong messages about conformity and what is and isn&#8217;t attractive in a girl.  </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t buy the childrearing argument as the reason for such gender-disparity in celebs of any field.  It seems clear to me that it comes far more from our perceptions of what a superstar designer or chef or engineer *should* be like.  When our perceptions change, we&#8217;ll find that the conventions will too.</p>
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		<title>By: Rusty</title>
		<link>http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=392&#038;cpage=1#comment-5566</link>
		<dc:creator>Rusty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Dec 2006 03:49:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nine-moons.com/2006/12/14/there-are-no-female-celebrity-designers-because-they-have-babies-instead/#comment-5566</guid>
		<description>ECS,
Oh, you mean you noticed how I acted around Kristine?

:)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ECS,<br />
Oh, you mean you noticed how I acted around Kristine?</p>
<p>:)</p>
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		<title>By: ECS</title>
		<link>http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=392&#038;cpage=1#comment-5565</link>
		<dc:creator>ECS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Dec 2006 03:14:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nine-moons.com/2006/12/14/there-are-no-female-celebrity-designers-because-they-have-babies-instead/#comment-5565</guid>
		<description>Rusty, interesting question. But since you have already scolded other commenters for generalizing from personal anecdotes, I&#039;m not seeing how my experiences are particularly relevant in a discussion of inequities in the designing workplace. (plus, I&#039;m a lawyer not a designer)

cj douglas - I&#039;ve met Rusty.  He&#039;s not intimidated by confident, independent women. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rusty, interesting question. But since you have already scolded other commenters for generalizing from personal anecdotes, I&#8217;m not seeing how my experiences are particularly relevant in a discussion of inequities in the designing workplace. (plus, I&#8217;m a lawyer not a designer)</p>
<p>cj douglas &#8211; I&#8217;ve met Rusty.  He&#8217;s not intimidated by confident, independent women. :)</p>
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		<title>By: cj douglass</title>
		<link>http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=392&#038;cpage=1#comment-5563</link>
		<dc:creator>cj douglass</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Dec 2006 00:51:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nine-moons.com/2006/12/14/there-are-no-female-celebrity-designers-because-they-have-babies-instead/#comment-5563</guid>
		<description>psychologist? I&#039;ve been called worse.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>psychologist? I&#8217;ve been called worse.</p>
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		<title>By: Rusty</title>
		<link>http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=392&#038;cpage=1#comment-5559</link>
		<dc:creator>Rusty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Dec 2006 20:52:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nine-moons.com/2006/12/14/there-are-no-female-celebrity-designers-because-they-have-babies-instead/#comment-5559</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I really think that we as a public in general are threatened by independent/confidant women in the public eye.&lt;/i&gt;

CJ,
I&#039;ve heard this sentiment many times before and maybe because I&#039;m young and I live in New York but this sounds really, really strange. My mind can&#039;t wrap itself around the idea of being threatened by an independent/confident woman (or women). Speaking generally it very well could be the case but to me it just sounds so dang &quot;psychologist-trying-to-sound-intelligent&quot; phony.

Mark,
Oh. I see what you were saying now.

ECS,
Have you been discriminated against (in the workplace) because of your gender? Would you say men have had an unfair advantage in your direct experience (based solely on their gender, nothing else)? I&#039;m asking because I&#039;m sincerely curious if you&#039;re speaking from first-hand experience or otherwise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I really think that we as a public in general are threatened by independent/confidant women in the public eye.</i></p>
<p>CJ,<br />
I&#8217;ve heard this sentiment many times before and maybe because I&#8217;m young and I live in New York but this sounds really, really strange. My mind can&#8217;t wrap itself around the idea of being threatened by an independent/confident woman (or women). Speaking generally it very well could be the case but to me it just sounds so dang &#8220;psychologist-trying-to-sound-intelligent&#8221; phony.</p>
<p>Mark,<br />
Oh. I see what you were saying now.</p>
<p>ECS,<br />
Have you been discriminated against (in the workplace) because of your gender? Would you say men have had an unfair advantage in your direct experience (based solely on their gender, nothing else)? I&#8217;m asking because I&#8217;m sincerely curious if you&#8217;re speaking from first-hand experience or otherwise.</p>
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		<title>By: ECS</title>
		<link>http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=392&#038;cpage=1#comment-5556</link>
		<dc:creator>ECS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Dec 2006 20:08:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nine-moons.com/2006/12/14/there-are-no-female-celebrity-designers-because-they-have-babies-instead/#comment-5556</guid>
		<description>Not sure where &quot;all things being equal&quot; comes into the mix here.  Of course, things aren&#039;t equal.  Hence your post! :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not sure where &#8220;all things being equal&#8221; comes into the mix here.  Of course, things aren&#8217;t equal.  Hence your post! :)</p>
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