Comments on: The Tower of Babel, The Book of Mormon, and the Pointy-Haired Boss http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=749 Sat, 08 Jun 2013 07:33:39 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.1 By: Waruchi http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=749&cpage=1#comment-138297 Waruchi Thu, 01 Nov 2012 22:15:12 +0000 http://www.nine-moons.com/2008/02/12/the-tower-of-babel-the-book-of-mormon-and-the-pointy-haired-boss/#comment-138297 When the new Morumon Sho came out I asked all of the members of the branch to help us in distributing the old Morumon Kei. They understood the weird bean-counting mentality and many of the members actually helped us. When all of the old Books of Mormon were gone, several of the members asked if they could have copies of the new one to give out as well. This spirit of missionary work continued for a few months, contributing to two baptisms. When the new Morumon Sho came out I asked all of the members of the branch to help us in distributing the old Morumon Kei. They understood the weird bean-counting mentality and many of the members actually helped us. When all of the old Books of Mormon were gone, several of the members asked if they could have copies of the new one to give out as well. This spirit of missionary work continued for a few months, contributing to two baptisms.

]]> By: Ryam http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=749&cpage=1#comment-85452 Ryam Fri, 24 Jul 2009 20:59:53 +0000 http://www.nine-moons.com/2008/02/12/the-tower-of-babel-the-book-of-mormon-and-the-pointy-haired-boss/#comment-85452 I don't know any of that Japanese non-sense that went on in the past as I served in Brazil. The thing is that when I read the Portuguese version I thought it was super plain and super easy to understand in Portuguese, but I had people that told me it was awful, nobody would ever be able to understand a book that uses such old language, etc. My point is that even if people said that it was hard to understand in my experience they may really have been saying, "I'm not that interested." Because the same day others would tell me how much a lighter read the BoM is compared to the Bible. That's just part of the work. Next, I followed my mission president and I thought it was stupid, pigheaded, and all around idiotic what he told me to do. But I did it anyway, and it worked. No matter how dumb it seems it worked and I enjoyed more success doing the stupid, pigheaded, idiotic things than I did in any other time in my mission. Lastly to those leaving the church. That's a shame. If you can believe that some man that only preached kindness 2000 years ago got nailed to a tree because we all hated him for what he taught, and because of that act all of our sins are forgiven, and even more amazing still that this dead guy got up and walked around 3 days after his death, then after talking to some folks flew off to some unknown place and will return again someday in the future, then what is so hard to believe about the book of abraham, or the temple, or anything else for that matter. Why couldn't God say this is the way things are? Even if it doesn't make sense to men. God does what is wisdom to him. You have allowed doubts to enter into your faith. I'm not going to argue about the validity of the points you guys raise, I have seen the contemporary translations and everything else. My point isn't in them, because they were made by very knowledgeable men. But what of the faith that comes with the religion? Why can't God tell Joseph to write a certain translation, or if there is some meaning more sacred to the translation that has yet to be uncovered, a sort of code perhaps to keep sacred things sacred? Why do you doubt the temple ordinances because of similarities to other practices? The sacrament is similar to many practices of other faiths, do we abadon it because of those similarities? Of course not. Truth abounds in all places and in many cases different degrees of truth can be found everywhere. I do not condemn you for your descion to leave. I actually commend you for it. You seek truth, that is good. But what of your faith? Will you wreck your faith with doubts? How long until you use a purely scientific approach to religion and become atheist? Because you will never be able to prove once and for all that there is a God, and that the God that you claim to worship is that God, and that your way of worshiping him is the correct way. When you search for truth you must have doubts or why would you be searching in the first place. And faith and doubt cannot exist in the same person at the same time. I don’t know any of that Japanese non-sense that went on in the past as I served in Brazil. The thing is that when I read the Portuguese version I thought it was super plain and super easy to understand in Portuguese, but I had people that told me it was awful, nobody would ever be able to understand a book that uses such old language, etc. My point is that even if people said that it was hard to understand in my experience they may really have been saying, “I’m not that interested.” Because the same day others would tell me how much a lighter read the BoM is compared to the Bible. That’s just part of the work.

Next, I followed my mission president and I thought it was stupid, pigheaded, and all around idiotic what he told me to do. But I did it anyway, and it worked. No matter how dumb it seems it worked and I enjoyed more success doing the stupid, pigheaded, idiotic things than I did in any other time in my mission.

Lastly to those leaving the church. That’s a shame. If you can believe that some man that only preached kindness 2000 years ago got nailed to a tree because we all hated him for what he taught, and because of that act all of our sins are forgiven, and even more amazing still that this dead guy got up and walked around 3 days after his death, then after talking to some folks flew off to some unknown place and will return again someday in the future, then what is so hard to believe about the book of abraham, or the temple, or anything else for that matter. Why couldn’t God say this is the way things are? Even if it doesn’t make sense to men. God does what is wisdom to him. You have allowed doubts to enter into your faith. I’m not going to argue about the validity of the points you guys raise, I have seen the contemporary translations and everything else. My point isn’t in them, because they were made by very knowledgeable men. But what of the faith that comes with the religion? Why can’t God tell Joseph to write a certain translation, or if there is some meaning more sacred to the translation that has yet to be uncovered, a sort of code perhaps to keep sacred things sacred? Why do you doubt the temple ordinances because of similarities to other practices? The sacrament is similar to many practices of other faiths, do we abadon it because of those similarities? Of course not. Truth abounds in all places and in many cases different degrees of truth can be found everywhere.

I do not condemn you for your descion to leave. I actually commend you for it. You seek truth, that is good. But what of your faith? Will you wreck your faith with doubts? How long until you use a purely scientific approach to religion and become atheist? Because you will never be able to prove once and for all that there is a God, and that the God that you claim to worship is that God, and that your way of worshiping him is the correct way. When you search for truth you must have doubts or why would you be searching in the first place. And faith and doubt cannot exist in the same person at the same time.

]]> By: goviolet » what happened in vegas http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=749&cpage=1#comment-80876 goviolet » what happened in vegas Fri, 10 Apr 2009 07:12:16 +0000 http://www.nine-moons.com/2008/02/12/the-tower-of-babel-the-book-of-mormon-and-the-pointy-haired-boss/#comment-80876 [...] The Man in the High Castle, The Martian Chronicles. Verne and Wells, of course. They had a 1909 Japanese translation of the Book of Mormon, which uses crazy archaic kanji and was surreal to flip through - like a Japanese book that slid [...] [...] The Man in the High Castle, The Martian Chronicles. Verne and Wells, of course. They had a 1909 Japanese translation of the Book of Mormon, which uses crazy archaic kanji and was surreal to flip through – like a Japanese book that slid [...]

]]> By: David T. http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=749&cpage=1#comment-75886 David T. Mon, 26 Jan 2009 23:03:20 +0000 http://www.nine-moons.com/2008/02/12/the-tower-of-babel-the-book-of-mormon-and-the-pointy-haired-boss/#comment-75886 Cha-- I only read the American version. That's the <i>true</i> version. Dead to rights. Cha– I only read the American version. That’s the true version. Dead to rights.

]]> By: MCQ http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=749&cpage=1#comment-75883 MCQ Mon, 26 Jan 2009 22:03:28 +0000 http://www.nine-moons.com/2008/02/12/the-tower-of-babel-the-book-of-mormon-and-the-pointy-haired-boss/#comment-75883 <blockquote>The true word of God stands on its own and those who read it with sincerity and honesty and pray about it will come to know of its truth, whether that be in the Bible, The Book of Mormon, or any other scripture that claims to be the word of God, no matter what language it is translated into or how difficult it is to comprehend.</blockquote> Well, if that were true then there would be no need to translate it at all. Everyone could just pray about the english version.

The true word of God stands on its own and those who read it with sincerity and honesty and pray about it will come to know of its truth, whether that be in the Bible, The Book of Mormon, or any other scripture that claims to be the word of God, no matter what language it is translated into or how difficult it is to comprehend.

Well, if that were true then there would be no need to translate it at all. Everyone could just pray about the english version.

]]> By: One Frozen Chosen choro http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=749&cpage=1#comment-75876 One Frozen Chosen choro Mon, 26 Jan 2009 19:41:05 +0000 http://www.nine-moons.com/2008/02/12/the-tower-of-babel-the-book-of-mormon-and-the-pointy-haired-boss/#comment-75876 Wow! what an exchange of ideals and various people and insults! It only shows we in fact do have free agency and that God will force no one into Heaven. I also served a mission in Japan. I served in the Japan Sapporo Mission from 1981-1983. (The Frozen Chosen) I used the "old" translation as it was all we had. I don't recall anyone ever saying it was too hard to read. The honest seekers of truth read it and felt the spirit of this sacred record. That is the point. It doesn't matter what the translation is in any language, if the reader is honestly seeking the truth, he or she will feel the spirit bear witness of its truthfulness. The words written on the pages themselves do not convince anyone of its truthfullness; the spirit of God does. "And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things." Moroni 10:5. If a reader honestly and sincerely reads with the intent of finding the truth, it does not matter if the words are old Japanese, old English, old Portuguese, etc. It would be sad to tell Martin Luther that his translations of the Bible into German from the original Greek were too hard to comprehend, at least the common people were finally allowed to read the word of God for themselves rather than to have someone tell them what they thought it meant. To tell the others who translated the Bible into English so that many thousands more could come to believe in Jesus the Christ that their translations were to hard to comprehend would be most unfortunate as well. What about all the wonderful Japanese people who joined the church and were convinced that Jesus is the Christ by reading the "old" translation prior to the 1990s? Ask Elder Yoshihiku Kikuchi what he thinks of the "old" translation. The true word of God stands on its own and those who read it with sincerity and honesty and pray about it will come to know of its truth, whether that be in the Bible, The Book of Mormon, or any other scripture that claims to be the word of God, no matter what language it is translated into or how difficult it is to comprehend. Wow! what an exchange of ideals and various people and insults! It only shows we in fact do have free agency and that God will force no one into Heaven. I also served a mission in Japan. I served in the Japan Sapporo Mission from 1981-1983. (The Frozen Chosen) I used the “old” translation as it was all we had. I don’t recall anyone ever saying it was too hard to read. The honest seekers of truth read it and felt the spirit of this sacred record. That is the point. It doesn’t matter what the translation is in any language, if the reader is honestly seeking the truth, he or she will feel the spirit bear witness of its truthfulness. The words written on the pages themselves do not convince anyone of its truthfullness; the spirit of God does. “And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.” Moroni 10:5. If a reader honestly and sincerely reads with the intent of finding the truth, it does not matter if the words are old Japanese, old English, old Portuguese, etc. It would be sad to tell Martin Luther that his translations of the Bible into German from the original Greek were too hard to comprehend, at least the common people were finally allowed to read the word of God for themselves rather than to have someone tell them what they thought it meant. To tell the others who translated the Bible into English so that many thousands more could come to believe in Jesus the Christ that their translations were to hard to comprehend would be most unfortunate as well. What about all the wonderful Japanese people who joined the church and were convinced that Jesus is the Christ by reading the “old” translation prior to the 1990s? Ask Elder Yoshihiku Kikuchi what he thinks of the “old” translation. The true word of God stands on its own and those who read it with sincerity and honesty and pray about it will come to know of its truth, whether that be in the Bible, The Book of Mormon, or any other scripture that claims to be the word of God, no matter what language it is translated into or how difficult it is to comprehend.

]]> By: california joe http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=749&cpage=1#comment-75141 california joe Mon, 12 Jan 2009 03:01:54 +0000 http://www.nine-moons.com/2008/02/12/the-tower-of-babel-the-book-of-mormon-and-the-pointy-haired-boss/#comment-75141 I'm a convert at 25 and now mid 40's remembering an episode of Bewitched where Darin gets an coin, or something he believes makes him invincible, and acts accordingly to great success. This is how I feel about choro, believes in the BOM, and all the GA stuffs, and acts accordingly to great success. Hats off to you and hope your have a great life. Really. The reason why I am planning my exit is mainly because the temple rituals are the same as the masonic rituals, the book of Abe is a proven false translation, and the fact that JS translated with a peep stone. I think the mormon culture is excellent, but to say the ONLY true church in light of the many errors, where one error is too many for the ONLY true church, leaves me only one course. Leave the church and love my neighbor. I’m a convert at 25 and now mid 40′s remembering an episode of Bewitched where Darin gets an coin, or something he believes makes him invincible, and acts accordingly to great success.

This is how I feel about choro, believes in the BOM, and all the GA stuffs, and acts accordingly to great success. Hats off to you and hope your have a great life. Really.

The reason why I am planning my exit is mainly because the temple rituals are the same as the masonic rituals, the book of Abe is a proven false translation, and the fact that JS translated with a peep stone.

I think the mormon culture is excellent, but to say the ONLY true church in light of the many errors, where one error is too many for the ONLY true church, leaves me only one course. Leave the church and love my neighbor.

]]> By: pablo http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=749&cpage=1#comment-57348 pablo Wed, 02 Jul 2008 03:43:10 +0000 http://www.nine-moons.com/2008/02/12/the-tower-of-babel-the-book-of-mormon-and-the-pointy-haired-boss/#comment-57348 Dear Whiting Choro, You sound like a real blind dork. How do you handle the fact that the book of abraham is not a translation but a made up story of fantasy, and the temple rituals have been changed numerous times. How can that be? I am a 15 year convert on my way out because of the falsehoods and dogmatic dorks like you. Pablo Dear Whiting Choro,
You sound like a real blind dork. How do you handle the fact that the book of abraham is not a translation but a made up story of fantasy, and the temple rituals have been changed numerous times. How can that be? I am a 15 year convert on my way out because of the falsehoods and dogmatic dorks like you.
Pablo

]]> By: cheryl http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=749&cpage=1#comment-55510 cheryl Wed, 28 May 2008 17:48:10 +0000 http://www.nine-moons.com/2008/02/12/the-tower-of-babel-the-book-of-mormon-and-the-pointy-haired-boss/#comment-55510 Seth- Ignore the last two comments. He obviously doesn't know you personally (like...ooh! Me!) and is glued so tightly to that saddle up there on that noble (and all-be-it high) steed. Wowzahs. Seriously, It's been a while since I've seen such a personal attack via blogging. Sorry, Seth. Glad you have thick skin... Seth-
Ignore the last two comments. He obviously doesn’t know you personally (like…ooh! Me!) and is glued so tightly to that saddle up there on that noble (and all-be-it high) steed.

Wowzahs. Seriously, It’s been a while since I’ve seen such a personal attack via blogging. Sorry, Seth. Glad you have thick skin…

]]> By: whiting choro http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=749&cpage=1#comment-55504 whiting choro Wed, 28 May 2008 06:44:42 +0000 http://www.nine-moons.com/2008/02/12/the-tower-of-babel-the-book-of-mormon-and-the-pointy-haired-boss/#comment-55504 You know, after reading your bio, Seth, it seems completely obvious to me, and that it should be to you as well, that the Lord, although He does care and has a plan, does allow people to be human, and selfish and stupid, as evidenced by your own description of your sad missionary attitude and lack of comittment. He didn't strike you down for your poor work ethic and attitude, nor did he strike down the "idiot" who translated the original Japanses translation either, or the "stupid" leader in Tokyo who was on some purported power trip. And look, he isn't striking you down even now, when as a priesthood leader in your ward, you perpetuate an attitude that defies the Spirit and missionary work. I hope that you were being completely, insincerely sarcastic. If not I really hope you figure out that the road of cynicism you sound like you are on will not lead you or your family to happiness. Of course the Lord allows all sorts of crap to happen, even to the best of people. But is is not what happens around you that counts, it is what you do with what is around you that determines who you are and what you will become. But who am I to judge you? I don't know but what I gleaned by stumbling on this page whil looking for vintage copies of the Book of Mormon in Japanses. But, as I was a sincere, hard working, dedicated missionary at the same time you were ( in Sendai) I found a very saddening and disturbing expression of the kind of attitude that I saw and still see in people who should and can be more comitted than they are. It is a tough fight to keep up that comittment. And if you struggled then, it must be terribly difficult now. I say that with sincerity, as it is tough for me as well. But the determination pays off, and the self satisfation of knowing that you have done the best you can do, while being human, and being you, is still very rewarding. I sure hope you step up to the plate and kick that shamefully apostate-sounding attitude before it reasons you and your family right out of your eternal potential. If I am completely wrong about you, consider how a person not of our faith would view your expression. Would you really be ok with them getting the same impression as I have gotten? How sad that would be if your expressions here were the only impression they ever had of our church. I'm sure that you are better than that. And if you are, I am glad. You know, after reading your bio, Seth, it seems completely obvious to me, and that it should be to you as well, that the Lord, although He does care and has a plan, does allow people to be human, and selfish and stupid, as evidenced by your own description of your sad missionary attitude and lack of comittment. He didn’t strike you down for your poor work ethic and attitude, nor did he strike down the “idiot” who translated the original Japanses translation either, or the “stupid” leader in Tokyo who was on some purported power trip.

And look, he isn’t striking you down even now, when as a priesthood leader in your ward, you perpetuate an attitude that defies the Spirit and missionary work.

I hope that you were being completely, insincerely sarcastic. If not I really hope you figure out that the road of cynicism you sound like you are on will not lead you or your family to happiness.

Of course the Lord allows all sorts of crap to happen, even to the best of people. But is is not what happens around you that counts, it is what you do with what is around you that determines who you are and what you will become.

But who am I to judge you? I don’t know but what I gleaned by stumbling on this page whil looking for vintage copies of the Book of Mormon in Japanses. But, as I was a sincere, hard working, dedicated missionary at the same time you were ( in Sendai) I found a very saddening and disturbing expression of the kind of attitude that I saw and still see in people who should and can be more comitted than they are. It is a tough fight to keep up that comittment. And if you struggled then, it must be terribly difficult now. I say that with sincerity, as it is tough for me as well. But the determination pays off, and the self satisfation of knowing that you have done the best you can do, while being human, and being you, is still very rewarding.

I sure hope you step up to the plate and kick that shamefully apostate-sounding attitude before it reasons you and your family right out of your eternal potential.

If I am completely wrong about you, consider how a person not of our faith would view your expression. Would you really be ok with them getting the same impression as I have gotten? How sad that would be if your expressions here were the only impression they ever had of our church.

I’m sure that you are better than that. And if you are, I am glad.

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