I believe that hope begins all things. Hope based on absolute eternal truths (truths that do not change) leads us to faith in our Savior, which brings a witness of the Spirit of things which are true, which leads us to feel of the Saviors great love (charity) for us which brings us more hope, which leads us to greater faith in the Savior, which brings us love for the Savior (charity) and so it continues until we see things as we have never seen them before.

I’m glad you came back from excommunication. Some are just not able to do so, and I think it shows real spiritual maturity and a rock-solid testimony to do that. In some ways, however, apostasy is different from excommunication. There are those who are excommunicated because of apostasy, and there are those who remain believers and never remove themselves in any way from the church, but who are excommunicated because of a particular sin. Those in the latter group probably should not be referred to as apostates.

I was treated still with love and respect until I could come back into the fold. There was justice, yes; but there was mercy and love, also. I thank God for all of it. Apostates are people we should love. Some fall into so much shame and embarrassment they cast blame for their fate on the church. This is Satan in their minds, as I know from experience.

One can leave the church, but they seldom seem able to leave it alone. How many sites do you see that announce the owners are ‘ex-mormons’? Why is that needed? It is a thinly-veiled jab at the faith and the faithful. If this isn’t apostasy, I don’t know what is.

the church presents a paradigm of how things should be. If you desire to believe, if you yearn to hear the still small voice of the spirit, then you will be rewarded. If you follow the commandments in faith, you will be rewarded. BUT, if it seems you aren’t being rewarded, remember to endure to the end because your reward only comes at the end of the trial of your faith.

This paradigm is rock solid if you can accept it, but the problem is your acceptance of this paradigm is something you don’t really choose. When you hear it and understand, it either seems intuitive to you (because you have that inclination to faith) or it brings you nothing but misery and pain (because you do not have that inclination to faith in a paradigm that actually requires it but claims that it doesn’t need it.)

But I mean, we can’t really communicate because of the different paradigms anymore. And I think that’s how you get apostates who stay out.

You’re right that no sign will come. But, I don’t think things are so “pull yourself up by your bootstraps” as you seem to think. The “place for just a little bit of faith,” or…better yet, the “desire to believe,” I think, is set apart by faith itself. So if you don’t have faith (which I think is more of an unchosen inclination to believe), then you won’t truly desire to believe. You can force yourself to fit under that model, but you’ll just find yourself inadequate under that model and wreck your life or mind or both.

I mean, you say people just have to have that bit of faith to jump into the spiritually unknown, but there is no reason to have this kind of faith unless someone is already inclined to believe in things like the spiritually unknown.

But for someone who has lived by the “rules” and not seen anything to “increase faith” — for someone to suggest that this is impossible and really, that faith will have its rewards and that’s how things are is not very convincing.

I’ll make a hypothetical scenario (that I guess isn’t too far away from how things actually affect people). The church has very specific “rules” about homosexuality/same sex attraction as it relates to chastity, eternal gender, eternal family, etc., So, essentially, the church is telling gay people to just “have a bit of faith” and endure the incredible challenges of this life, because it’ll all be better in the future. But…the problem is…just having this bit of faith doesn’t come from nowhere. The person already has to have an inclination to believe in “better times for the future” (such as an afterlife or whatever), and this inclination *isn’t* chosen. That’s the problem. This foundational inclination isn’t chosen. Someone who doesn’t believe can say “I believe” or “I desire to believe” or “I have faith,” but unless it’s already there, it’s a lie to himself and everyone else.

So what are the visible consequences of this? Well, for someone who has the inclination to faith, it will not be hard to endure to the end, regardless of if his enduring will lead to anything or not. Even if there is no heaven, his life will be justified because, in this life, he was searching for a personally justified puprose.

But for someone without the inclination? For them, they are lying to themselves, rejecting themselves, utterly inadequate and unfit for a system that claims that if you desire to believe, things should *eventually* get better. They degrade themselves because of their poor fit to this paradigm, when really things might just be better for them if they abandoned the paradigm.

I still recognize that I am culturally a Mormon through and through, but there is no going to belief unless and until some sign comes.

The problem with this is that no sign will come. It doesn’t work that way, unfortunately. It would sure be nice if we could all just wait for a sign and then, when we finally see that burning bush, say “alright, alright, you got me, I’m in.” But that’s not faith, and yes, faith is still required. It’s not going to be easy, but if you make a place for just a little bit of faith, or just a desire to believe, you will be rewarded (not necessarily with a sign, but something that increases your faith). Every step of faith which is, by definition, made into the unknown is rewarded spiritually. But you do have to take the first step. God’s not going to do it for you.

How would you respond to someone who doesn’t believe because they simply don’t have it in them and have never had it in them? They haven’t had spiritual experiences, they don’t feel anything like the scriptures or leaders will say (and when there is a feeling, it’s *not* a good one). They aren’t turning away from the Holy Ghost because to them, the Holy Ghost doesn’t is doing a miraculous game of hide and seek.

I would say that you do have it in you. Believing might be difficult for you but there are not many people who find that to be easy. Some people are more spiritually inclined and that is a great gift, but most find it to be a struggle. As I said before, though, if you make the effort, I think you will find it to be very worthwhile.

I also think there is a real difficulty with recognizing the spirit for most people. If you think you have never felt the spirit, then you don’t have enough experience with it and don’t know what it feels like. The more effort you make to feel it, the more you will learn to recognize it. The key element here is desire.

As long as we don’t see reality in grayscale or color and continue to see it in dichotomies of this or that and black and white, we have imho little chance of reaching those whose thinking is more complex than that. If God is not more nuanced than that, He isn’t my God.

As long as whisperings of the Spirit of those who differ are ignored, there is no chance.

OK, the first person is my mother. She has been inactive for a while, wasn’t a strong believer, but is definitely a believer. She’s probably just going along with my dad (because he’s more of the religious person in the family). Why did she become inactive? Well, it’s like that stereotype: someone said something rude to her and she decided she didn’t need that. (It doesn’t help that the person who said this comment is the bishop’s wife — oops!)

Now, there are those who would say that my mother is apostate or her reason for becoming inactive is one of the reasons for becoming inactive (and being offended would be right up there with pride and some sin).

But I’d like to hope that this isn’t the idea of an apostate. After all, my mother still believes (I guess).

Instead, I guess you can take a look at me. I was active in the church (I didn’t really believe, but I sure was active), and then over time, I realized that I didn’t have to follow things so tooth-and-nail. I still recognize that I am culturally a Mormon through and through, but there is no going to belief unless and until some sign comes.

How would you respond to someone who doesn’t believe because they simply don’t have it in them and have never had it in them? They haven’t had spiritual experiences, they don’t feel anything like the scriptures or leaders will say (and when there is a feeling, it’s *not* a good one). They aren’t turning away from the Holy Ghost because to them, the Holy Ghost doesn’t is doing a miraculous game of hide and seek.

I don’t know how you answer this. But some answers that probably *won’t* help are suggesting pride (regardless of whether that’s the case or not), suggesting they have some unresolved sin (whether that’s the case or not), etc.,

This could also open up the can of worms regarding separating the wheat from the tares. I mention this but don’t think I’d know how to properly extrapolate.