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Nine Moons » Blog Archive : Would Captain Moroni Get Released From His Calling Too? » Would Captain Moroni Get Released From His Calling Too?

Would Captain Moroni Get Released From His Calling Too?

MCQ - September 25, 2011

Once again, I’ve been getting worked up over a discussion over at MM.

This one is about the Friends of Scouting funds drive (“FOS”). As a former scoutmaster, I have been involved in this funds drive in the past, and have seen, and even helped, the scouts in my ward be turned into little fundraisers for this program. So when I found out years ago that all the money donated under this program goes to Scouting HQ, never to be seen again by the local unit that raised the money, it made me angry, and I vowed never to participate again.

Further, when I found out how high some of the salaries are for some of the BSA executives (for example, according to the SL Trib: Great Salt Lake Council executive Paul Moore made $228,000 annually before leaving to head a council in Los Angeles where he is paid $383,500, and Robert J. Mazzuca, the national chief Scout executive, had a 2009 compensation of $1.21 million), I became even more disillusioned and upset.

To put this in context, you need to be aware of all the charges that parents and wards are asked to pay in order to be a part of the BSA. There are annual dues and registration fees and payments for uniforms and for training and for scout books and for study materials and for awards and for camps and for activities and for materials at the camps. Nothing you get from the BSA is free. It all comes at a cost and usually a high cost. Then, on top of that, you are asked to raise money for the BSA. And the BSA does not share this money with you. It all goes to the BSA to pay their expenses.

If the BSA had amazing facilities and services for its member units, this might be somewhat justifiable. But it does not. The camps are often poorly staffed and poorly maintained. The people who work at the Council HQ are often unhelpful and sometimes even rude. What all of this means is that, in my mind, and after my experiences with scouting in the BSA, there is little or no justification for asking anyone to contribute their money to FOS. It just doesn’t make sense to keep giving money to a non-profit that is using its funds in this way.

Yet the Church continues to ask people to do so. I’m OK with that, I guess. But just don’t get upset with me when I decline to contribute, and don’t try to tell me that I’m required to keep silent about a program that I see as a complete boondoggle. In other words, run your program however you see fit, but don’t ask me to be complicit in something that I see as little less than a scam.

And yet apparently, that’s precisely the message one ward is sending to its members. This story in the Tribune tells of a Young Men’s President who was apparently released from his calling “because of his unwillingness to support scouting” when he sent an email to members of his ward telling them the facts about the money contributed to FOS. In other words, he told them what I have just told you, and which I have known and been told by others for years.

You could look at this email as a sort of “Title of Liberty” if you like. Captain Moroni used his to inform his fellow believers of a few things, and we celebrate him for that. But that’s not what happened to our YM President.

After sending this email, he got an email back from his Stake President saying that the SP was “appalled”, and on the same day, he was released from his calling by his bishop.

Is this really the message we want to send? That loyalty to our programs (even when they are obviously questionable) is more important than the truth? And that we value getting money for the BSA over the feelings of our members who are working on behalf of our youth? I don’t think so. This YM President did nothing that hasn’t been done by others in his calling and similar callings for years (including me), except that he’s the first I have known to say this stuff in writing. He set out to inform his fellow ward members about the facts. And instead of thanks, he got his head handed to him.

That’s just not how our Church is supposed to work. Someone who cares enough about his fellow ward members to try to get the facts and inform them of those facts in an effort to protect and help them deserves our support, not our condemnation. To me it comes down to this: Who are we really loyal to? If it’s a choice between the BSA (or any program, really), and a fellow ward member and brother in the gospel, I choose my brother every time.

51 Comments »

  1. Wow. I’m glad that YM don’t generally do scouting in my country. I’m surprised that this still is such a big issue. I thought that scouting wouldn’t be as essential part of YM program anymore. After all we got Duty the God, which is emphasized a lot recently.

    Comment by Niklas — September 26, 2011 @ 12:31 am

  2. While I don’t disagree with you about FOS, and I’m more than uneasy about the stake president’s positive assertion that Pres. Monson has received revelation on this specific point, I’d like to leave the window open on the possibility that the Tribune story doesn’t tell us everything that could be relevant. We have only a line or two quoted from the email the former Scoutmaster sent, a statement from the stake president that the Scoutmaster’s release was not solely for the FOS email, and only the Scoutmaster’s claim that “it was pretty clear” that that was the cause of his release.

    If the email were more offensive than the short bit quoted, if it disparaged the church for its support of FOS, or if the Scoutmaster did not limit his opposition to FOS and/or complained publicly about other parts of the Scouting program, or about the church’s support, or about his bishop’s or stake president’s failure to immediately act on or adopt the Scoutmaster’s views, or if any number of other relevant details have not been included in the Tribune’s account, then the message you say one ward is sending to its members may not be that message at all. There very easily could be more to the story than we know.

    Comment by Ardis E. Parshall — September 26, 2011 @ 2:40 am

  3. Clearly the YM Pres was itching for a fight if he was willing to air his grievances with the press. So, I believe he got what he wanted out of this (and he got released! I never knew it could be so easy!)

    But, if everything from the SP email is accurate, then that’s troublesome. “Dear Condescended to Member of the Church. You are wrong. I am right. Jesus doesn’t love you.”

    Comment by Dr. Horrible — September 26, 2011 @ 5:07 am

  4. the church needs to divorce itself from the Boy Scouts. It is an awful organization. And I say that as an Eagle Scout who enjoyed the 50-mile hikes way back then. But seriously, the church does not need the Boy Scouts in order to have activities for boys. Nothing about those 50-mile hikes had anything to actually do with the Boy Scout organization. What does the BSA do for the church that is worth the money?

    Comment by Dan — September 26, 2011 @ 5:37 am

  5. Is this really the message we want to send? That loyalty to our programs (even when they are obviously questionable) is more important than the truth? And that we value getting money for the BSA over the feelings of our members who are working on behalf of our youth? I don’t think so.

    Preach on, MCQ. When I hear such news from the mothership I just count my blessings that outside of the US at least, a “general lack of support of Scouting” will not lead to disciplinary measures against those who toil in the Lord’s vineyard, however imperfectly.

    Comment by Peter LLC — September 26, 2011 @ 5:46 am

  6. Peter, I’m curious, is there any equivalent to the BSA in Europe? Does the Church affiliate with the Baden-Powell organization in the UK?

    Comment by MCQ — September 26, 2011 @ 6:49 am

  7. I think I generally agree with your position but I wonder how far we, as Mormons, can really extend the logic. What about the request to help move in a less active member whom you are pretty sure will never darken the doors of the chapel? I’m not sure I’d be as justified including that information in the e-mail to the EQ and HPG asking for help with the move. Better yet, what about the corporate relocation where the company pays but the family opts to pocket the relo money and asks the ward to help out with the move? Following your logic, I should include that data point in my e-mail request for help, to wit: “Brethren, I am asking you to sacrifice your Saturday morning to help Brother Doe move. Be advised Brother Doe’s company paid him 15K for his relocation expenses which he has decided to spend in other ways and has asked us to provide the [free] labor to load his posessions to facilitate his move. Doughnuts and drinks will be provided by Brother Doe. Look forward to seeing everyone there.”

    Applying the full disclosure method with doctrinal positions is really interesting, but that’s beat to death in the bloggernacle. E.g. a lesson on the Word of Wisdom including the fact Joseph Smith had some wine the night before he was murdered to help calm his nerves (though, it’s not clear he knew what awaited him the following day) and the WoW was not really implemented in its current from until the early 20th century. There are probably 100 different issues and examples where what and when to disclose certain inconvenient or inconsistent examples or facts would enhance or undermine a lesson.

    Apart from the over reaction and heavy handedness of the
    SP in the article, the scouting example is pretty easy case where the full disclosure is no problem. As a potential donor I would appreciate the information and it would reduce my FOS contribution to approx $0.00.

    Comment by rbc — September 26, 2011 @ 7:20 am

  8. Your loyalty question is a good one. It seems to me that as the church has become more hierarchically stratified I observe more leaders shifting their loyalty from those they serve to the organization itself. Quotas, numbers and other markers of performance become more important than the people being asked to generate them.

    Comment by KLC — September 26, 2011 @ 7:25 am

  9. rbc,

    While you may be right about full disclosure undermining the lesson, it must also be remembered that when a group of people are unaware or not taught the reason for their traditions and practices, they will reach a time where the traditions and practices are thrown aside as useless items from a previous time.

    There is a strong case to be made that the Word of Wisdom is losing its relevance as a commandment (which status was arbitrarily imposed from the top down) given the plethora of stimulant-like substances to which Latter-day Saints imbibe including Red Bull, sugar laced soda, mountain dew, etc.

    If we are not honest about “mild drinks made from barley” or the true reason why the revelation states “hot drinks” instead of directly mentioning tea or coffee, we are not telling the whole truth behind the practice and it becomes harder to justify to younger generations.

    Brigham could not give up his addiction to chewing tobacco yet was still a prophet of the Lord. Today, he would not even be allowed to have a simple calling in our wards. There is a serious problem when we have reached such a point.

    Comment by Michael — September 26, 2011 @ 7:34 am

  10. But seriously, the church does not need the Boy Scouts in order to have activities for boys.

    I hate to admit it but I’d love the Church to break away and do its own thing as well.

    Comment by Clark — September 26, 2011 @ 7:48 am

  11. On the one hand, if I had done what the Young Men leader did, I would expect to be released. The release shouldn’t have come as a surprise.

    On the other hand, (assuming that the excerpt printed correctly conveys the full letter’s tone) I find the attitude of the stake president disturbing. Not every disagreement should be treated as a matter of personal unrighteousness.

    Comment by Eric — September 26, 2011 @ 7:51 am

  12. Interesting post–I had no idea that FOS was just a way of supporting the greater BSA organization. Not that I supported it previously, but now I feel justified in doing so for reasons beyond being satisfied with my tithing as my sole Church-related contributions.

    Regardless of any revelations about FOS, I was always troubled by the solicitation of members at Church for contributions to a non-Church entity. If I’m at a scouting event, that’s one thing. But to hijack EQ, bear testimony of scouting, and pass the collection plate (which sums up my experience with one ward’s FOS evangelist)–frankly I think it’s a little offensive.

    Comment by Bro. Jones — September 26, 2011 @ 8:11 am

  13. Eric,

    Why would you have expected to be released? If accurate and truthful information is not being provided by local leadership who has the responsibility to provide it? Where are the checks and balances on the local ward and stake level, especially when it comes to truth and disclosure? How does change get affected on the local level when there is apathy on the part of the leadership or non-questioning of important items?

    Do you believe that the prophet has prayed about and directly approved of the FOS campaigns? Do you believe that once the stake president has spoken the thinking has been done?

    Comment by Michael — September 26, 2011 @ 8:13 am

  14. MCQ, scouting is alive and well throughout Europe. In my country of residence with 8 million inhabitants there are two separate national organizations and another expressly Catholic scout organization.

    As far as the local LDS church is concerned (I don’t know about the UK), there is no officially sanctioned relationship with the local scouting movements and I haven’t even heard anyone in the church wish there was. Maybe because around here they let girls join.

    Comment by Peter LLC — September 26, 2011 @ 8:20 am

  15. On the topic of the church doing better than scouting:

    The one problem with a BSA/LDS divorce is that young men would no longer benefit from the instant recognition that comes with having earned your eagle rank. Everyone in the U.S. knows what that means, and it mostly impresses.

    Duty To God just won’t have that cachet, and probably should not ever be on a résumé.

    That said, I would support the church’s abandonment of the scouting program because I agree that the experience would be better and lower cost without the non-profit’s hand in the cookie jar.

    I had a very successful businessman for a boss that was fond of saying “Nobody makes more profit than a non-profit.”

    My Mesa, Arizona stake abandoned the council scout camps in 1994 or so, holding it’s own large scale camp every other year and allowing the wards to choose their own Big Summer Event on the off years. The stake camp cost families less (I think half) and was superior in every way from my perspective as a scout, and the ward activities in the other years were unique and very fun.

    Comment by cantinflas — September 26, 2011 @ 8:28 am

  16. Really, cantinflas? Does anybody really care whether someone is an Eagle Scout or not?

    Even if I had reached that exalted rank, I can’t imagine ever putting it on a resume.

    Comment by Mark B. — September 26, 2011 @ 8:38 am

  17. Mark B.,

    I am an employer living in Florida. I have seen non-LDS people list Eagle Scout on their resume a few times. Especially when they worked very hard for it and did not take the easy route which can be common in LDS wards.

    Comment by Michael — September 26, 2011 @ 8:43 am

  18. I include Eagle Scout on my resume. It came up in my interview for my current job. I believe it was a positive (or at worst neutral) influence on the decision.

    Comment by Dane Laverty — September 26, 2011 @ 9:21 am

  19. cantinflas–100% of the females in your Church cannot list “eagle Scout” on their resumes and, I hope, do not list “YWhood Recognition Award–which you may know is equivilant in difficulty to earning an Eagle–these girls work mighty hard for this!” on their resumes and yet we STILL get jobs! Amazing.

    Comment by ESO — September 26, 2011 @ 10:05 am

  20. The truth?

    He was cherry picking facts to make a point…that is not particularly a secret.

    I am not a big BSA fan, but I am not surprised the a YM President who is openly antagonist towards it would be let go.

    Additionally, I support the use of the Scout program because I think that the non-LDS aspects of it are some of its strength. Duty to God and the like are just lame.

    Comment by Chris H. — September 26, 2011 @ 10:24 am

  21. ESO, probalby close to 100% of the boys who earn their Eagle award when they turn 14! should simply turn and hand the award to their respective Mothers since it was probably way more of the mother’s doing than the individual boy.

    What value in the real world is an award which can be earned when a kid is 13 years old? The Mormon based Eagle Award factories which routinely pump out 13 yr old eagle scouts have done a fair amount to undermine the prestige usually associated with the award. (I know one has to be 14 but plenty of the 14 year olds have finished all the requirements or, more precisely their mothers have finished the requirements, and the kids are just waiting for the calendar to turn.)

    Comment by rbc — September 26, 2011 @ 10:30 am

  22. When my son is old enough I’d much prefer him to participate in a non-LDS sponsored scout troop. It doesn’t make sense to participate in a troop that only meets 2/month and whose leaders aren’t as fully committed to the program (typical for LDS – troops).

    Comment by CJ — September 26, 2011 @ 10:32 am

  23. ESO,
    Yes, but at only 70% of the salary.

    rbc,
    I’ve said before, Mormon scouts get their Eagles at the ages of 14 (their moms), 16 (by threat of no dating/driving) and 18 (finish before too old). Of course, I hated scouts and their embarrassing costumes. I loved all the camping and pinewood derby, though you don’t need scouts to do that stuff.

    Comment by Rusty — September 26, 2011 @ 12:04 pm

  24. the facts about the money contributed to FOS.

    I’d like to see some documentation on this, as no one provides any. I forwarded the original article to my Dad, who’s an SP far away from Utah and has had some scouting involvement. He replied “We do FOS very differently [here], and most of the funds stay in the Council, but there is a cost per boy that is requested by the council, or set as a goal. I’m really surprised some are sending the YM door to door. Bizarre.”

    So, do most of the funds stay in the local Council, or do they in fact go to scouting HQ to fund high salaries? Or does it vary from place to place?

    Mark B- I put it on my resume when I was younger, and I don’t come from the Mormon belt. Didn’t earn mine til I was nearly 18 though.

    I’ll echo Eric, not every disagreement should be treated as a matter of personal unrighteousness. But, someone who has a beef with scouting probably shouldn’t be in charge of YM.

    Comment by Ben — September 26, 2011 @ 12:48 pm

  25. KLC said,

    It seems to me that as the church has become more hierarchically stratified I observe more leaders shifting their loyalty from those they serve to the organization itself.

    Reminded me of Armand Mauss’ discussion of that, as a function of Church growth and loss of personal connections.
    http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/05/alternate-voices/

    Comment by Ben — September 26, 2011 @ 12:51 pm

  26. While they will likely never meet the fashion standards of Rusty (heck, I never will), they have vastly improved the uniforms since my scouting days in the late 80s-early 90s.

    Comment by Chris H. — September 26, 2011 @ 1:00 pm

  27. But, someone who has a beef with scouting probably shouldn’t be in charge of YM.

    Are you suggesting that being favorably disposed to scouting is a necessary condition for service in the church’s young men’s program? If so, on what grounds?

    Comment by Peter LLC — September 26, 2011 @ 1:57 pm

  28. I was put in charge of the FOS drive one year by the bishop. I wasn’t involved in scouts or YM at the time and had never heard of it before. Most of the men had preprinted cards from having given before, and I followed the instructions and hijacked a priesthood meeting for it.

    That taught me never to give so as to get my name on one of those preprinted cards. Since I knew the signs to look for, in subsequent years I was always able to figure out when they were going to do the FOS pitch, and I’d just skip priesthood that day. Worked well enough for me!

    My son didn’t have a great experience in scouting, because you can’t assign men to that kind of calling when they don’t care and aren’t passionate about it the way non-LDS scout leaders are. His scout master lost his merit badge cards from summer camp, and that was the last straw; he opted out of the program, with my full support.

    Comment by Kevin Barney — September 26, 2011 @ 2:20 pm

  29. Peter, let me rephrase. “Someone who has a big enough beef with scouting that they email everyone in the ward their problems withit probably shouldn’t be in charge of YM, particularly where YM and scouting are closely intertwined.”

    That more agreeable, Herr LLC?

    Comment by Ben — September 26, 2011 @ 3:00 pm

  30. I now know how to get released from a YM leadership calling. Last time it was to be ward clerk, but next time, who knows. Of course if I do not advertize the purported reason for release, it is even better.
    BTW, I am once again without a ward calling after serving in MP leadership for a while. The last time, a PEC member kept bugging the Bishop about upgrading a certain calling and hinting “el oso would be perfect for this”. This is likely to start happening again soon. There were some hard feelings directed toward me by a ward member a few years ago. Fortunately, not everyone in the PEC knew about this so the bishopric just seemed to be slow acting.

    Comment by el oso — September 26, 2011 @ 4:26 pm

  31. Are you suggesting that being favorably disposed to scouting is a necessary condition for service in the church’s young men’s program? If so, on what grounds?

    That is apparently the case, Peter, at least in the US, where the BSA is “the activity arm of the aaronic priesthood.” I am very tired of hearing those words, and I think it’s a bad idea to have the the BSA so involved in something that’s apparently so central to our YM program.

    Comment by MCQ — September 26, 2011 @ 5:34 pm

  32. It would be far more accurate to call scouting the activity arm of the deacon’s quorum.

    Comment by KLC — September 26, 2011 @ 6:28 pm

  33. KLC, that’s true, except that even after your son is out of the deacons quorum, you still have to keep paying the BSA!

    Comment by MCQ — September 26, 2011 @ 7:59 pm

  34. That more agreeable, Herr LLC?

    Honestly, Brother Ben, it is not, though that’s not your fault. The idea that one’s position on an extracurricular activity should have a bearing on one’s ability to serve in the church is a disturbing one and apparently more widespread than I realized.

    I’m aware of the nearly 100 year old partnership in the United States between the church and scouting and believe that the relationship is no doubt of benefit to members of the church in the United States (and apparently the Philippines).

    However, when someone’s views on scouting rule out their ability to serve in the YM, the church leadership has the relationship between scouts and the church backwards. The scouting program was made for man, and not man for the scouting program.

    Comment by Peter LLC — September 27, 2011 @ 5:14 am

  35. Would Captain Moroni be released from his calling too?

    Without a doubt in a great many wards throughout Utah and Arizona, possibly Idaho too. But probably not in most of the rest of the world. Especially not in the thinly staffed wards of most of Western Europe, but he might be ousted in one or two in the UK.

    But if it’s any consolation, Jesus would not have been allowed to attend BYU unless he modified his grooming to conform to US military standards circa mid 1960s. The honor code would surely require him to shave the beard off lest he look like a filthy hippy protested somewhere in Ohio or California.

    No one ever said that Mormon life was not full of delicious little ironies such as the above!

    Comment by john f. — September 27, 2011 @ 6:13 am

  36. By the way, the Church is not involved in any way with Boy Scouts in the UK, although it is quite big here in the home country of Lord Baden-Powell. (Interestingly, the Hyde Park Ward in London is currently meeting in the Baden-Powell House because the Hyde Park Ward building is closed for renovations. But aside from that, YM programs in the UK have no involvement with the scouting.)

    I worry about the extent to which priestcraft was involved in the stake president’s actions in this case. From the selections of his email that were printed in the Tribune, it appeared that one reason he was made was that because of the YM president’s efforts in providing fuller disclosure about the uses of the FOS funds, his stake ended up with a lower donated amount than other stakes in the area. Reading between the lines, perhaps the stake president viewed being able to return a large sum donated from his stake as a good contribution to his “church resume” in comparison to other stake presidents in the area and he feared that his prospects for advancement were therefore diminished because of the actions of the YM president.

    Comment by john f. — September 27, 2011 @ 6:29 am

  37. Rusty–thank goodness for my union!

    Comment by ESO — September 27, 2011 @ 7:47 am

  38. If we take scouting out of it, do you agree with the general principle?

    “Someone who has a big enough beef with X that they email everyone in the ward their problems with it probably shouldn’t be in a calling heavily involved with X.”

    Comment by Ben — September 27, 2011 @ 8:29 am

  39. Ben, when soliciting money for something, it seems right to provide full disclosure so that the people being asked to donate know where their money is going. It seems to me that this YM president felt that in order to solicit money for this cause in good conscience, he needed to be honest about where the money was going. That is to his credit, don’t you think? Or do you subscribe to some alternate measure of morality?

    Comment by john f. — September 27, 2011 @ 8:32 am

  40. Ben,

    You’ve made an important change to the equation.

    The original was “Someone who has a big enough beef with X that they email everyone in the ward their problems with it probably shouldn’t be in charge of Y.”

    I still think one’s views of scouting should be viewed as icing on the cake, not a deal breaker, especially if said views were an unspoken condition applied retroactively.

    Comment by Peter LLC — September 27, 2011 @ 8:52 am

  41. I’m currently the YM President in my ward and, as a result, a reluctant supporter of scouting. Fortunately, our Scout Master is on the ball, because if it were left up to me, the merit badges and the Order of the Arrow would go by the wayside.

    One thing that has always bugged me about Scouting is that all the YM callings need the BSA’s approval. I always tease my bishop, who is an ardent supporter of the Scouts, that we need to change Preisdent Monson’s statement to “Whom the Lord calls, he qualifies, so long as the Scouts approve.”

    Comment by Nate S. — September 27, 2011 @ 11:46 am

  42. Nate, that is technically true, but have you ever heard of a YM leader being turned down by the scouts?

    Comment by MCQ — September 27, 2011 @ 4:17 pm

  43. My hat went off to the YM president in the Tribune article–and also to MCQ for this post.

    Comment by Clean Cut — September 27, 2011 @ 8:30 pm

  44. Thanks for posting this. I always support the program thinking the money is somehow benefiting the little ones in my ward. I had no clue of how it works and the salaries of the people at the top.

    I have become a tad bit more cynical… :(

    Comment by Manuel — September 28, 2011 @ 7:56 am

  45. I said:

    … if I had done what the Young Men leader did, I would expect to be released. The release shouldn’t have come as a surprise.

    To which Michael apparently jumped to some conclusions about my perspective:

    … Do you believe that once the stake president has spoken the thinking has been done?

    Absolutely not.

    Just to be clear, based on what I know, I think the Young Men leader did the right thing. And while I do believe that someone who does something like that can expect to be released, I never said, nor did I suggest, that he should have been released.

    Comment by Eric — September 28, 2011 @ 9:31 am

  46. MCQ, no, in my somewhat limited experience I have not, nor have I heard of it happening. And, if it were to happen, I suppose I would be glad that the Scouts picked up on something that could be an issue down the road. But, it does result in some delay (2-4 weeks) in effectuating the calling as forms need to be completed and the Scouts do their thing.

    I use the phrase as a passive-aggressive way of voicing my displeasure with the church outsourcing the “activity arm” of the YM organization, which inevitably results in more administrative burdens on my end — training, meetings, forms and permits. I’d much rather spend my time ministering the YM than administering the program. My uninformed opinion is that we do it for the insurance benefits.

    Comment by Nate S. — September 28, 2011 @ 9:35 am

  47. For several years our Canadian ward shared the annual Scout registration fee with the boy. Our fund raising projects paid half and the boy (parents) paid half. The fee then was around $45.00. More recently, our stake pays the whole fee, thus all eleigible boys are registered. This summer, we held a combination Scout / Aaronic Priesthood Camp based on Helaman and the Stripling Warriers. It was great. Our Alberta Scout camps are in great shape, with lots of program choices. {We will host the national jamboree in 2013}.

    We do not have an FOS program that is pushed by the Church. I was troubled by the Bp and SP pressure to participate. Like Ardis, I feel there i9s more to the story than is public so far.

    Comment by Glenn Smith — September 28, 2011 @ 9:51 am

  48. I just remembered this post and thought I’d check in, only to see I’d been pounced on as soon as I left!

    ESO – I said, pretty directly, that the benefit is there and would disappear for young men if the church divorced itself from BSA, and that I would support the divorce. I didn’t say in my best hand-wringing voice “What would the young men do to impress people then!?” Why the acrimony?

    Mark B. – Others already answered, but the requirements for Eagle are rigorous and nationally recognized. What 18 year old wouldn’t put it on their resume if they’d earned it?

    Comment by cantinflas — September 30, 2011 @ 1:32 pm

  49. I put Eagle Scout on my resume up through law school. It seemed a little silly to keep it on there after that.

    As far as Young Womanhod and Duty to God awards go, I have seen both on resumes and I support them being there. Even if you have to explain what it is, so what? If you worked hard for it and are proud of your acheivement, it just gives you the opportunity to toot your own horn. Nothing wrong with that.

    Comment by MCQ — September 30, 2011 @ 8:35 pm

  50. Just saw this, sorry, Mcq. You know, I was surprised at all the animosity toward the FOS fundraising attempts. Heartened, in a way, because I always think my negative opinions are just part of my flawed personality. Thanks for this post.

    Comment by annegb — October 7, 2011 @ 1:09 pm

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