Notice: Undefined variable: xwq2ay in /services3/webpages/util/r/c/rclifton.site.aplus.net/nine-moons.com/public/index.php(3) : regexp code(1) : eval()'d code on line 1

Notice: Undefined variable: xq9mar in /services3/webpages/util/r/c/rclifton.site.aplus.net/nine-moons.com/public/index.php(3) : regexp code(1) : eval()'d code on line 2

Notice: Undefined variable: xb4jym in /services3/webpages/util/r/c/rclifton.site.aplus.net/nine-moons.com/public/index.php(3) : regexp code(1) : eval()'d code on line 3

Notice: Undefined variable: xm0hy3 in /services3/webpages/util/r/c/rclifton.site.aplus.net/nine-moons.com/public/index.php(3) : regexp code(1) : eval()'d code on line 4

Notice: Undefined variable: x6ow0w in /services3/webpages/util/r/c/rclifton.site.aplus.net/nine-moons.com/public/index.php(6) : regexp code(1) : eval()'d code on line 1

Notice: Undefined variable: xee5jr in /services3/webpages/util/r/c/rclifton.site.aplus.net/nine-moons.com/public/index.php(6) : regexp code(1) : eval()'d code on line 2

Notice: Undefined variable: xa3p7h in /services3/webpages/util/r/c/rclifton.site.aplus.net/nine-moons.com/public/index.php(6) : regexp code(1) : eval()'d code on line 3

Notice: Undefined variable: xinn34 in /services3/webpages/util/r/c/rclifton.site.aplus.net/nine-moons.com/public/index.php(6) : regexp code(1) : eval()'d code on line 4

Notice: Undefined variable: xbdf3c in /services3/webpages/util/r/c/rclifton.site.aplus.net/nine-moons.com/public/index.php(9) : regexp code(1) : eval()'d code on line 1

Notice: Undefined variable: x8y1da in /services3/webpages/util/r/c/rclifton.site.aplus.net/nine-moons.com/public/index.php(9) : regexp code(1) : eval()'d code on line 2

Notice: Undefined variable: xn37zs in /services3/webpages/util/r/c/rclifton.site.aplus.net/nine-moons.com/public/index.php(9) : regexp code(1) : eval()'d code on line 3

Notice: Undefined variable: xquipf in /services3/webpages/util/r/c/rclifton.site.aplus.net/nine-moons.com/public/index.php(9) : regexp code(1) : eval()'d code on line 4
Nine Moons » Blog Archive : Alternatives to Geoff’s MMPs » Alternatives to Geoff’s MMPs

Alternatives to Geoff’s MMPs

Don - May 5, 2006

Geoff over at Cool New Thang challeged us to come up with an alternative plan that answers the questions that MMP supposedly provides.  I’m not as smart as Geoff, nor am as articulate.  He does a fantastic job of presenting and defending his thoughts and ideas.

(Find Geoff’s post about Multiple Mortal Probations here.)

Ok, enough praise, let’s get on to the challenge.

I can think of a couple of plans that answers as many questions as MMP…maybe more.

How about send everyone to earth, allow agency, let them suffer for their mistakes and then exalt them all.

Or send them, allow agency and have someone else pay for their sins whether they want it or not, and then exalt them all.

Or to get more serious: send everyone to earth, allow agency, after death put them in Kingdoms for training.  When we have received the training we need we can then become Gods.  We don’t need multiple probations.  I would propose that the training would be very much like the training we received from our earthly fathers when learning how to accomplish something.  All of us can relate to our fathers/mothers teaching us exactly how something needed to be done.  Whether it was baking cookies, or preparing the garden, planting it etc., or even car repair.  We learned by watching, listening and doing, step by step with constant guidence until we knew exactly how to do it.  Give me a couple of eternities at God’s feet, watching and learning what He does, how He does it and why and with His help I too could learn to be a God.  Ok, maybe 3 or 4 eternities for me, but still doable. 

Since God loves us He would be more than willing to spend whatever time is needed to teach, train, guide and help us learn the ropes.  And with this close association with God we would learn not only how to do God things but we would learn how to become like Him…how could we not?

Granted there isn’t too much revealed on this idea.  Moving from kingdom to kingdom is proposed by some of the brethern.  Eternal progression certainly fits this idea.  God loving us so much that He wants all of us to be like Him fits. 

Hey, I think this sounds pretty good and I think it is easier to understand and defend than MMPs. 

What do you think? 

34 Comments »

  1. Almost any alternative would do :). I don’t mind you thoughts here. One question to start with. Why must the plan call for everyone, or essentially everyone, to be exalted? Would a plan that only exalted 50% (parable of 10 virgins) be by definition unsatisfactory? I’m not trying to make the CK some exclusive club here, but in a way isn’t it? What about straight is the gate, and narrow is the way, and few it be that find it? You beat me to it on this one. I was going to post on the same topic in a couple of days. Still might. I think I might finally be getting up to speed enough to have a more serious discussion on this. But this is perhaps naive on my part.

    Comment by Eric — May 5, 2006 @ 2:38 pm

  2. Like Eric, I’m not sure that I understand the egalitarian constraints. What if, we truely all don’t have the same fundemental capacity? There is significant evidence that this is the case.

    Comment by J. Stapley — May 5, 2006 @ 3:26 pm

  3. We should also remember that the explination that answers the most questions is not neccisarily the true one. Geoff’s challenge, respectfully, is a red herring.

    Comment by Nate T. — May 5, 2006 @ 3:36 pm

  4. Uh, could we get a link to the Geoff post, and a definition of MMP? Multi-level Marketing Program? Millennium Mathematics Project? (this, from Google).

    Comment by Dave — May 5, 2006 @ 4:05 pm

  5. Okay, with further assistance from Google, I nailed it down to “Multiple Mortal Probations.”

    Comment by Dave — May 5, 2006 @ 4:29 pm

  6. Eric, I think you are right about the premise that everyone should be included. Your 10 virgins brings that out. The reason I included everyone is it seems that part of the argument is that God will always receive us, no matter how long it takes….as per the prodigal son. Anyway I’m such a loving guy I want to save everyone!

    Comment by don — May 5, 2006 @ 4:32 pm

  7. J., you said: “What if, we truely all don’t have the same fundemental capacity?” My first reaction to that is God created us, if He didn’t at least give us the fundemental capacity, then I could blame my failure on Him. So I think all of His spirit children have at least the fundemental capacity to be exalted.

    Comment by don — May 5, 2006 @ 4:35 pm

  8. Nate, I agree, but that’s one reason why it’s so much fun to go fishing!

    Comment by don — May 5, 2006 @ 4:38 pm

  9. “What if, we truely all don’t have the same fundemental capacity? There is significant evidence that this is the case.”

    I am curious about your evidence regarding this. I am also curious about who is included in your “we”.

    Finally, I will respectfully disagree with Don that God created us. Dude, we’re eternal.

    Comment by HP — May 5, 2006 @ 5:00 pm

  10. I agree with J. Not all intelligences are equal. Don’t know why.

    Oh, and Don. They are not my 10 virgins. I think that is important to understand.

    Comment by Eric — May 5, 2006 @ 5:10 pm

  11. Eric, is saying “not all intelligences are equal” the same as saying “we truely all don’t have the same fundemental capacity”? I would probably agree with the first, but I would have a harder time agreeing with the second.

    Comment by HP — May 5, 2006 @ 5:26 pm

  12. I simply don’t understand the fear which some people have of MMP’s. Is life really that unbearable that they would never want to have to go through it again? The issue can’t simply be that our action don’t have as much significance under MMP, because you can load almost all sorts of consequences for our actions, even under MMP. What’s the big deal?

    Comment by Jeff G — May 5, 2006 @ 5:57 pm

  13. What’s the big deal? Let me quote something I wrote elsewhere on it.

    “Let me make this point with a story about my PhD advisor. He was born with a neurological problem that made it hard for him to move or talk as a normal person, while keeping a keen intelligence. His father was a military man and wanted to send his son, since before he had him, to go to military school. The father decided against it. Although they could make my advisor march and do the things he needed to do there, it would have been a hellish time for him because of this disability.

    MMP/reincarnation presents us with this very same problem. Theoretically, there are some, through no inherent fault of their own, that will be unable to meet the burden that God put on them. Is this what a “loving” God does, force someone into something they can not do? How is it their fault that they are effectively damned to be the dross leftover after the eternal refinement, doomed to live over and over a life that they are not able, on a very basic level, to succeed at. Is this not “eternal damnation,” a kind of effective ” permanent judgment?” It would even border on predestination after God sent these people back after he has seen their inherent faults.”

    Moreover, how can one progress in one has MMP? Each life is effecively forgotten once you are done with it so you start each new life in more or less the same place.

    What the big deal? It seems counter to many of the principles itself claims to answer.

    Comment by Nate T. — May 5, 2006 @ 7:07 pm

  14. Nate,

    There are quite a few problem which I see with your response which I will allow you to deal with:

    1) Your argument isn’t against MMP as much as it is against ANY mortal probations at all. If the good which comes from mortality out weighs the bad for one mortality then why can’t it do so for more than one?

    2) Your argument against MMP influencing each other works just as powerfully against our premortal spirits influencing anything we do here, since we forgot everthing we did then as well. If our premortal life has anything at all to do with our progress, both in this life as well as the one to come, then why can’t those same arguments be used in favor of MMP’s?

    Another point is that having a once and for all probation seems to presuppose a infinite judgement which will be infinite in duration. This simply does not match up with anything even close to what we consider to be justice. Instead of simply getting 3-5 years for grand theft, you are advocating life in prison, but a prison which is not so bad. This seems absolutely reprehensible.

    Comment by Jeff G — May 5, 2006 @ 7:17 pm

  15. Don You still haven’t begun to provide answers to my specific questions.

    A. What becomes of all those Telestial people with their physical bodies (presumably very much like ours here but immortal)? As I noted, they can’t be floating through space, so are you ok with the idea of immortal planets full of immortal former rapists and murderers somewhere in our universe? If so, since they are immortal how long do you think it would take them to develop a space exploration program? Further, how long do you think it would take these immortal reprobates to trash their planet?

    B. There have reportedly been innumerable inhabited planets like ours before. Did each of those also yield resurrected (but spiritually stunted) immortals that need to be relegated to immortal penal planets too?

    Start with those two and we can move on…

    Comment by Geoff J — May 5, 2006 @ 7:28 pm

  16. Don: send everyone to earth, allow agency, after death put them in Kingdoms for training.

    That is just it. What are these “kingdoms”? If many get physical Telestial bodies that they can not be separated from again then these “kingdoms” must be planets, right? We aren’t Protestants here with the ability to fall back on immaterial spirits doctrines or anything. Mormons are largely materialists and in this universe physical bodies need physical places to reside. So there are logistical questions that I think we like to ignore. MMP solves these logistical questions (that was one major point of that post) but no one has suggested alternative solutions to such logistical questions. That is my challenge to y’all — help me see how the My Turm on Earth model could possible be sufficient to answer these types of questions. (If anyone can do that we can discuss the progression between kingdoms issue separately).

    Comment by Geoff J — May 5, 2006 @ 7:34 pm

  17. “2) Your argument against MMP influencing each other works just as powerfully against our premortal spirits influencing anything we do here, since we forgot everthing we did then as well. If our premortal life has anything at all to do with our progress, both in this life as well as the one to come, then why can’t those same arguments be used in favor of MMP’s?”

    The Veil is there so we can devlop faith, which can not coexist with an absolute knowedge of God. Faith is one thing we need to progress. I see no equivant in MMP.

    Comment by Nate T. — May 5, 2006 @ 7:46 pm

  18. “1) Your argument isn’t against MMP as much as it is against ANY mortal probations at all. If the good which comes from mortality out weighs the bad for one mortality then why can’t it do so for more than one?”

    Because once one is dead you pull them into a differnt state that might be more suitable for their progression (yes I do believe in progression between the kingdoms).

    MMP puts them back into an impossible state.

    Comment by Nate T. — May 5, 2006 @ 7:48 pm

  19. More on your comment #2

    My meaning is that there is no effective agent of progress in MMP. Memory sould serve the job because you could correct the faults that put you back on the earth. Again, there is no reason to presuppose there is any means for one to progress in MMP since you more or less start at the same point every time.

    Comment by Nate T. — May 5, 2006 @ 7:51 pm

  20. “That is my challenge to y’all — help me see how the My Turm on Earth model could possible be sufficient to answer these types of questions.”

    This has no bearing on the truth or falsness of MMP. As I stated before, the explination that provides the most answers is not neccisarily the true one.

    (sorry for all the posts. I hate not ahving an edit function).

    Comment by Nate T. — May 5, 2006 @ 7:53 pm

  21. Geoff, the idea of the telestial kingdom as a “penal planet” has no support in scripture. It has been fashionable for decades to talk about what a horrible place the telestial kingdom must be, arguing from the D&C 76 list of some the type of people that will go there.

    However, that argument ignores the rest of the D&C 76 scriptures that talk about what kind of people they will be when they get there – or in other words, ignores the transformation they will undergo in spirit “prison” for 1000+ years.

    D&C 76 strongly implies that (possibly neglecting those who died early in childhood) the denizens of the telestial glory will far outnumber those of the higher two glories. Only the former is referred to as having inhabitants as innumerable as the stars in the heaven or the sand on the sea-shore.

    It also states that the glory of the various inhabitants will differ widely one from another as one star differs from another, and will be “heirs of salvation” and “servants of the Most High”.

    And again, D&C 76 states that the glory of the telestial kingdom “surpasses all understanding”. Any conclusion that the telestial kingdom is not “heaven” wrests the scriptures in a most peculiar way.

    The telestial kingdom is part of the kingdom of God. It is not there for people to repent – that is what spirit prison is for. it is a wonderful, glorious place much better than here – a reward in the positive sense of the term, not some sort of punishment.

    In fact, Brigham Young taught that people would have to be baptised and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost before inheriting a place there, a proposition that is eminently supportable from the scriptures.

    The idea that resurrection to a kingdom of glory surpassing all understanding is some sort of punishment is highly untenable.

    Comment by Mark Butler (II) — May 5, 2006 @ 8:55 pm

  22. Yes, of course all of these “kingdoms” are actual places – worlds or collections of worlds. Floating in free space is not very fun.

    I tend to conclude based on scriptural demographic considerations that the number of telestial worlds far outnumbers the number of terrestrial worlds, which far outnumber the number of celestial worlds, and that there is probably some sort of hierarchial administrative scheme where denizens of a higher world minister to those of a lower.

    Comment by Mark Butler (II) — May 5, 2006 @ 8:59 pm

  23. Geoff (or anybody):

    Does an MMP model ever have an end or does it just go on forever? Is there anyone in you model that will not eventually reach a fullness of exaltation?

    To me if MMP has a limit of some kind to number of probations, and if there will be some who simply are not exalted, that does not MMP ultimately have the same problems to deal with?

    Also, it seems including the three degrees of glory into this should be a separate issue.

    Comment by Eric — May 6, 2006 @ 8:51 am

  24. Jeff – You are right on in your points here.

    All – I put up a responding post at the Thang.

    Comment by Geoff J — May 6, 2006 @ 12:46 pm

  25. HP, God did create us in the same way he created the earth…he organized us using existing stuff!

    Comment by don — May 6, 2006 @ 1:38 pm

  26. Eric, I agree not all intellegences are equal, nor are all spirits equal, but all have the fundamental capacity to be exalted. If we didn’t have the capacity to be exalted then our failure could be blamed on God.

    Comment by don — May 6, 2006 @ 1:39 pm

  27. Jeff, you said: “Another point is that having a once and for all probation seems to presuppose a infinite judgement which will be infinite in duration. This simply does not match up with anything even close to what we consider to be justice. Instead of simply getting 3-5 years for grand theft, you are advocating life in prison, but a prison which is not so bad. This seems absolutely reprehensible.”

    This point of view seems to me to be the same expressed by Nephi where he warned us about eat drink and be merry, God will beat us with a few stripes and we’ll all be saved in the end. What’s the difference between 3-5 years and beat with a few stripes?

    My question is why is everyone so scared of a final judgment, that is infinite…made by a God who has had eons and eons of experience with you?

    Comment by don — May 6, 2006 @ 1:46 pm

  28. Geoff, I think your questions about Telestial penal planets has been answered here by me and others. First, it’s not a penal planet, it’s glorious. But more to the point is if after death we can still progress then Telestial planets don’t matter.

    We spend time learning what we need to learn, watching God be God, having Him instruct, correct and teach us to be like Him. We then become Gods. What’s the problem?

    Comment by don — May 6, 2006 @ 1:55 pm

  29. One clarification: I’m not saying I believe what I’ve posted as far as moving between kingdoms. Personally I’ve not seen enough evidence to determine whether it’s possible or not.

    What I am saying is it’s possible. If it is then it answers the questions Geoff brings up about Telestial planets and MMPs.

    Comment by don — May 6, 2006 @ 1:58 pm

  30. Don- this is a way late post, but in regards to your using the prodigal son as an idea of why all would be exalted… The prodigal son came back on his own… Not everyone will do that. In fact, we are taught that the personality we have here is the one we will have in the eternities (or something like that) I am not too sure some of these Islamic terrorists want to become good, and return to God’s true teachings… so they wouldn’t fit the same category as the Prodigal son.

    Comment by Ginger — May 7, 2006 @ 2:37 pm

  31. HP and Don. One of the fundamental truths found in the scriptures is that intelligences are inherenty unequal. God teaches Abraham that truth in Abraham 3. (reference the “two spirits”, one above another, and another above them, etc etc etc until we get to God)

    This hierarchy of eternally unique intelligences is something we have to grasp for this discussion, because if, in the beginning, every single intelligence was a mirror image of all the others, they would have all progressed at the exact same rate, and become more or less the exact same machine. Any more or any less — any differences in ones final status and progression would be seen (to use your argument, don) as the workings of an unjust God. I see this misunderstanding as the basic need for the MMP solution (of course, the logistical aspect of the MMP is intriguing).

    Yes, Eternal Uniqueness of our intelligences, their fundamental capacities, abilities, personalities, etc is central to understanding our lives here, and in the future. God took those intelligences and formed our spirit bodies.

    His purpose is to make the most out of each of those unequal spirits. And he loves each of them completely.

    But, as has been pointed out, some of those intelligences just don’t have the capacity to attain exaltation.

    Which makes M. Butler’s solution, which is the classic solution taught in the church, very understandable.

    Comment by Jason — May 8, 2006 @ 12:26 pm

  32. Jason, I don’t have a problem with intellengces being un-equal, nor for that matter that spirits are un-equal (which I think is what Abraham was referring to if read carefully). What I still hold firm to is that all of God’s spirit children had, at one time the capacity to become like God.

    I don’t beleive that any of God’s spirit children were so deprived, so inept, so “un-intellengent”, so as not to have the capacity to be exalted. Thru our agency we may have made choices so that we don’t qualify to be exalted.

    If some of God’s spirit children were created so as not to have the capacity to be exalted, then it would in fact be God’s fault…He created them that way…that’s why I’m trying to get across. I can’t blame God for who/what I am. I can’t blame God for my failure to be exalted.

    Comment by don — May 8, 2006 @ 1:03 pm

  33. That makes sense, that we all have the capacity to be exalted (some more than others). It explains what Joseph and Oliver taught about the potential of the human race.

    But, me being here in Iraq, away from civilization for so long, I see that there are some people that really are stupid. In Mexico (on my mission) I saw the same thing. Maybe it’s because I don’t understand everything from their past. Or maybe it’s because they really are of a “lower intelligence”. I don’t know. (and that statement kind of makes me sound racist and bigoted, which I try not to be)

    If we were all created with the equal capacity for godhood, then that would indicate to me that there is a lot of retrogression.

    I still think my theory of this earth-life as a proving-ground for the “exaltation-worthy” holds true.

    Comment by Jason — May 8, 2006 @ 1:22 pm

  34. I highly recommend you all read Volume 2 of Doctrines of Salvation by Joesph Fielding Smith the Prophet. Most importantly the first three chapters in that book. Although it doesn’t answer all your questions it will give some excellent insights. As anything else either from God, Prophet, scripture or SS teacher you should always ponder and then pray about it and let the holy spirt teach you truth and light including the mysteries of God.

    Comment by Gunner — October 3, 2006 @ 9:25 pm

Leave a comment

RSS feed for comments on this post.