How Men Can Dress Better On Sundays

Rusty - January 23, 2007

Because the Church has chosen the American businessman as the ideal model of dress, I base my advice on the same model. These are not rules and you don’t have to follow them, I’m just offering some tips for those who are looking to button up (har!) their look a bit. For the most part these are generally accepted ideals for how a man should dress when dressing up, I’m just passing them on to everyone else.

FIT
Fit your clothing to your real body, not your ideal body. This is easily the most common faux pas men make when buying clothes. Well-fitting clothing isn’t a fad, just too many men haven’t matured beyond what they were wearing in junior high. A good rule of thumb is that if someone who weighs 50 lbs more than you could fit in it comfortably, it’s too big for you.

1) The shoulder seam of your shirts (and blazer/suit jackets, coats, everything) should land on the corner of your shoulder, not three inches down your arm.
2) Sleeve length should end where your wrist ends and your hand begins. And no sleeve-puff above the cuff!!
3) Your arms should fit comfortably (not spandex but not swimming) inside the sleeves. If you can fit both arms in one sleeve you’re WAY off.
4) When wearing a suit/blazer, your shirt cuff should peek out about 1/4″–1/2″ beyond the suit/blazer sleeve. Same when wearing a dress shirt under a sweater.
5) Chest/waist fit of shirts and suits should be comfortable (again, not spandex but not loose). A well-fitting suit will go slightly in at the waist and go back out at the hips.
6) Neck should fit comfortably (not choking but not loose). And always button that top button.
7) Ties should end just above the belt.
8) Your pants should fit to the thickness of your legs, not Lance Armstrong’s. Avoiding pleats helps this.
9) Pant length should end right above the tread on the back of your shoes.

SHOES
10) Get leather. And shine them. Often.
11) Get leather soles if you can afford them. They’ll last much longer and they usually look much better.
12) Black shoes with black suits. Brown/caramel shoes with navy suits. Other colors can be mixed and matched with a little more freedom.
13) If you’re going to wear tennis shoes to church they better either be Classic Vans or Stan Smiths (Adidas).

GENERAL TIPS
14) Tie, shirt, pants, socks and jacket should all be considered when deciding colors and patterns. They should compliment each other (but that doesn’t mean they need to match).
15) Iron your clothes. A wrinkled shirt eliminates all other efforts to look nice.
16) Wash your clothes. If your white shirt is grey or yellow, it’s now a colored shirt and you’re no longer a righteous priesthood holder.
17) Speaking of white shirts, no short sleeves unless you’re on a mission near the equator or younger than 14.
18) Suits require long sleeved shirts and a tie. If you’re not going to wear a tie, wear a blazer (or no jacket at all).
19) Collar stays!!
20) Never button the bottom button.
21) Regarding ties: no clip-ons or cartoon characters for anyone over the age of 12 and no bolos for anyone who doesn’t herd cattle for a living.
22) Regarding socks: absolutely no white socks (church is neither a gym nor the temple); sport socks are not church socks, you know the difference; colors and patterns are great as long as they compliment your shirt/tie.
23) Match to your belt to your shoes.
24) Pocket squares are great if they compliment the rest of the ensemble. Pocket protectors are for stake clerks (kidding…)

For more general mens Sunday fashion advice go here.

112 Comments »

  1. Rusty, practice what you preach…you colored shirt fashion king!

    Thanks, I’ll tape up your list in my closet to make sure I’m fit to present at church.

    Comment by Don Clifton — January 23, 2007 @ 5:31 pm

  2. Puke and double puke. I had a mission companion who was QC to the max, turned me off from this nonsense forever.

    Comment by ed42 — January 23, 2007 @ 5:49 pm

  3. Don,
    I’m far from a fashion king and I never said anything about colored shirts.

    Ed42,
    “QC”? You mean GQ? That’s okay man, like I said, you don’t have to follow any of these. I’m just curious, though, why “puke and double puke”? Is it a matter of degree or kind?

    Comment by Rusty — January 23, 2007 @ 6:45 pm

  4. Re #15. I don’t think “iron” and “wrinkled” are the only two choices. At least in the US where people have dryers (we did laundry by hand in South America), permanent press shirts which are promptly removed from the dryer look very nice (and keep more wrinkle-free as the day progresses than an ironed cotton shirt).

    Re #17, I don’t understand the problem with short-sleeved shirts. During the summer, or for those in warm climes, it makes sense to wear something that you’ll be comfortable in the rest of the day.

    Comment by Naismith — January 23, 2007 @ 7:09 pm

  5. A couple of points.

    Your tie should actually come to the middle of your belt buckle; not above or below it.

    If you have a leather watchband, it should match your belt and shoes.

    Socks should be a shade darker than your pants, not your shoes.

    Do not wear button-down collars with a suit.

    Comment by Kim Siever — January 23, 2007 @ 7:21 pm

  6. Ditto on the tie to the middle of the belt and the socks being one shade darker than the pants. Too many guys wear black socks w/ black pants.

    Also, I’m not a fan of black suits, nor am I a fan of loafers. If you’re an adult, you can tie your shoes.

    My advice on suits: If you only wear a suit one day a week, lay the cash and go get a nice one and get it tailored.

    Comment by Tim J. — January 23, 2007 @ 7:36 pm

  7. I like to wear my ties long. That way if I forget to zip my fly, the tie covers it up.

    I think he meant QC. That’s the postal abbreviation for Quebec, and we all know how those Quebecois dress.

    Comment by Mark B. — January 23, 2007 @ 8:05 pm

  8. And, what bottom button should we never button? Of our shirts, or our jackets or our trousers? (I know it’s hard to get button flies anymore, except on Levi’s, but I really don’t want to show up at church someday, if I go to Park Slope Ward, and be committing some fashion faux pas and have Rusty think poorly of me.)

    Comment by Mark B. — January 23, 2007 @ 8:07 pm

  9. What is this “tie” you speak of? Is this some form of ornamental dresswear?

    I have not worn a necktie in about the last 10 years. Including my wedding (my tux had a black button where the tie usually goes. My church attire has generally been colored or pinstriped oxford shirts, dockers and LL Bean topsiders. I live in an extremely informal resort area (Palm Springs) where standard business attire is a golf shirt and chinos. They dress up for church, but I didn’t.

    Comment by Phouchg — January 23, 2007 @ 8:22 pm

  10. Naismith,
    Good call on the wrinkled/ironed thing. Regarding the short sleeve thing, I think it’s just because short sleeves are more of a casual thing, they’re fine without a tie.

    Kim,
    All good points my fellow sartorialist.

    Tim,
    What’s funny is that you agree that socks should be darker than the pants and then begrudge those who wear black socks with black pants. What’s darker than black? And I do not share your distaste for black suits, I love them. Always classic. But I agree, get the best suit you can afford, you definitely get what you pay for. And there are some loafers out there, just don’t put pennies in them.

    Mark B,
    The bottom button of your suit jacket or blazer. I think that guideline originated with the fact that if you sit down the bottom button will always bunch up the bottom half of your suit whereas if it’s not buttoned then the suit sits to the side. But trust me Mark, when you show up to our ward your fashion sense is the least of the reasons I think poorly of you.

    Phouchg,
    Your response reminds me of the Seinfeld when Jerry cries and says, “what is this salty discharge?” Funny stuff.

    Comment by Rusty — January 23, 2007 @ 8:57 pm

  11. “Tie, shirt, pants, socks and jacket should all be considered when deciding colors and patterns. They should compliment each other…”

    Unless one’s articles of clothing are sentient — in which case I suppose it would be kind of them to compliment each other — they should complement each other.

    Comment by kuri — January 23, 2007 @ 9:03 pm

  12. #15 and #23 probably the two most important thing on the list.

    Concerning #21 and the bolo ties- don’t forget that the people who really do herd cattle have nice, pressed “church jeans” that they save for Sunday. I believe that they even iron them.

    Do people still wear double breasted suits?

    Comment by Jared — January 23, 2007 @ 9:24 pm

  13. be still, my heart. luckily, i have a husband who even has two pairs of sunglasses that are identical except in lens color so that he can match the black with blacks and greys and the brown with browns and blues.

    short sleeves with a tie looks ridiculous unless you’re a kid or a missionary. or a cowhand with pressed jeans. but even they wouldn’t wear that.

    my husband always wears thick, white athletic socks UNDER his dress socks. says dress socks are too thin and “feel funny.”

    Comment by pick a name, any name... — January 24, 2007 @ 12:25 am

  14. Jeans are not only pressed, but usually have the creases sewn in for goin-to-meetin’ clothes. And most cowboys don’t wear short sleeve button downs whether dress up or not. (end flashback)

    The button down collar is particularly taboo with double-breast suits, but they’re pretty much a pain in the butt to use with ties anyway.

    You all mentioned matching leathers, but you forgot the only exception to needing to match metal tones is your wedding band.

    Leather soles don’t actually last longer, but they do look better. Get decent shoes and use shoe trees so they stay decent. Loafers are casual shoes and should never be worn with a suit.

    And one hint to help your suit last longer, don’t get it cleaned too often. Only clean it if it is dirty or smells. If it’s just wrinkled, have it pressed instead. Your suit will not fade as quickly and will last longer. And clean both pieces at the same time, even if they both aren’t dirty. You want the fading to be equal.

    Comment by KyleM — January 24, 2007 @ 1:08 am

  15. What? No advice on sweaters??? As Rusty knows, I go for the Cliff Huckstible look as much as possible but I do make a piont to use colors appropriately. Though I probebly am only good at half these suggestions. Don’t worry, Russ, I’ll gradually adopt more as is convenient!:)

    One other suggestion, don’t ever wear a coat into a meeting, especially Sacrament meeting! (Especially when you’re giving a prayer or testimony) Obviously a suit coat or blazer is fine but if you’re cold, find some other way to keep warm! Try a sweater, they work for me.

    Comment by Bret — January 24, 2007 @ 1:15 am

  16. Very nice. I hate wearing suits, and I have often wished my ethnicity gave me an excuse to wear something more exotic. But if you’re going to wear one, then do it right.

    I have a problem with tie clips. What’s the point? If you ride a bike or work in the wind while wearing a tie, fine. Otherwise, leave Moroni on the temple.

    Comment by Norbert — January 24, 2007 @ 4:04 am

  17. I wear a double-breasted suit. It makes it easier for me to hide my heater. I also match color of my Fedora to the suit. Then a nice bow tie to top it all off. This makes me look inconspicuous when I’m tailing my client’s cheating husband so I can get the dirt on him. The Wonderdog is a bloodhound.

    Comment by Floyd the Wonderdog — January 24, 2007 @ 5:17 am

  18. Sorry, I actually meant black socks with navy pants. My bad.

    Comment by Tim — January 24, 2007 @ 7:01 am

  19. You people are all crazy. Wrinkled short sleeve shirts with a mismatched tie is a great look.

    Comment by Andy Sipowicz — January 24, 2007 @ 7:12 am

  20. “I think that guideline originated with the fact that if you sit down the bottom button will always bunch up the bottom half of your suit whereas if it’s not buttoned then the suit sits to the side.”

    Jackets should always be completely unbuttoned while you are sitting.

    Comment by Kim Siever — January 24, 2007 @ 10:03 am

  21. Nice post, Rusty. I like to dress up nice going to church, but that’s me. #19, lol. But hey, it beats a tutu, cowboy boots and a sombrero, which I saw a couple of months ago here in Seattle.

    Comment by Chad — January 24, 2007 @ 11:11 am

  22. You forgot that brown and green suits should never be worn at all. I’ve never understood the desire to dress like a walking piece of stool.

    Comment by endlessnegotiation — January 24, 2007 @ 11:15 am

  23. I’ve seen very few brown suits that I’ve liked. Green is hit and miss, but can look sharp.

    Comment by Tim — January 24, 2007 @ 11:25 am

  24. BLESS YOU!

    one more thing..

    the young men need to be reminded that their underwear is not an accessory.

    Comment by domina — January 24, 2007 @ 12:17 pm

  25. How come there are never posts for women and fashion in the Bloggernacle?

    Comment by Kim Siever — January 24, 2007 @ 12:24 pm

  26. #23, green only looked good for a minute in 1992

    Comment by domina — January 24, 2007 @ 1:15 pm

  27. ok.

    no denim skirts
    no coverall dress-anything
    no t shirts
    no flip flops
    no more ugly 1990 floral dresses

    and the list could go on for days.

    besides, we wouldn’t want to hurt feelings.

    Comment by domina — January 24, 2007 @ 1:25 pm

  28. Re 25 (Kim Siever),

    Because whoever posts one gets his/her eyes verbally scratched out. I believe there was somewhat extensive commentary on Elder Holland’s Conference remarks on how our women sometimes dress more like they’re going to the beach than to worship (or was that a non-gender directed remark?).

    With a 3-button suit, you button the middle button and leave the top and bottom unbuttoned. You never let a double-breasted suit hang open.

    Also don’t let “it’s a free country – I’ll dress how I want” act as a disguise for low self-esteem and lack of regard for others and your surroundings. Not saying it’s always a shallow excuse in this fashion, but it can be.

    Comment by Seth R. — January 24, 2007 @ 1:40 pm

  29. Actually lived in a Wyoming ward for three years.

    Our Ward Clerk was a soft-spoken, congenial gentleman who wore not only a bolo, but also a good pair of boots, with a brown tweed blazer. I think he might have even worn a hat on occasion (never indoors).

    It wasn’t a bad look to be honest.

    But he also a ranch, and he lived in Wyoming. So he had basically earned the right to dress that way.

    Lots of cowboy boots in Wyoming. Seems to fit.

    Comment by Seth R. — January 24, 2007 @ 1:45 pm

  30. Kim wrote: “Do not wear button-down collars with a suit.”

    Huh? No way, man. Go look at the Brooks Brothers or Hickey Freeman catalogs. Button-down collars are fine with a suit.

    Comment by Greg — January 24, 2007 @ 1:48 pm

  31. I just want to mention that no-iron shirts are a great blessing in my life.

    Comment by a random John — January 24, 2007 @ 2:39 pm

  32. #30 Brooks Brothers, though, is famous for its collegiate style — and button-down collars with suits just scream “I’ve not graduated”.

    Comment by Silus Grok — January 24, 2007 @ 2:41 pm

  33. Weird… my last comment isn’t coming through… I’ll post it in parts:

    My AEs cost $350, yes… but they lasted about 10 years. Which is more than I can say for most of the crap people put on their feet.

    Oh! And use shoe trees — they keep the shoe in good condition for much (much!) longer.

    14) Tie, shirt, pants, socks and jacket should all be considered when deciding colors and patterns. They should compliment each other (but that doesn’t mean they need to match).

    I’m surprised at how many people miss the subtle distinction between compliment/coordinate and match… matching is what cruel parents do when they dress their twins — and what LDS families do for family photos; complimenting/coordinating is weighing differences and similarities such that they _feel_ the same but aren’t.

    19) Collar stays!!

    Amen. Nordstrom sells brass ones that I really like.

    22) Regarding socks: absolutely no white socks (church is neither a gym nor the temple); sport socks are not church socks, you know the difference; colors and patterns are great as long as they compliment your shirt/tie.

    When bringing this up, I often give the following analogy: men’s clothing is meant to make the man look like a sword planted firmly in the ground: the head/handle… the broad shoulders/hilt… then slimming down to the tip. If your socks are white ( or otherwise distracting ) then you’re not grounded, you’re just floating there. The one-shade darker rule allows the eye to glide quickly over them and come to a definitive, abrupt, and “manly” end.

    Comment by Silus Grok — January 24, 2007 @ 2:42 pm

  34. On the comments:

    16. Do not wear button-down collars with a suit.

    I’ve actually seen a commentator or two call the button-down collars “Mormon collars” because the only people left wearing them are Mormon missionaries…

    19. …If you’re an adult, you can tie your shoes.

    Amen… loafers are for loafing — they dress-up jeans or other sportswear, but are too untidy for church.

    23. I think he meant QC. That’s the postal abbreviation for Quebec, and we all know how those Quebecois dress.

    Hah! Yes… we do: ‘cois pants, ‘cois boots… ah! the memories… and WHITE SOCKS!

    : )

    53. What? No advice on sweaters???

    I’ll give you some advice on sweaters: save them for family dinners… unless you’re svelte enough to wear a handsome v-neck sweater vest or cardigan under your sport coat.

    70. You forgot that brown and green suits should never be worn at all. I’ve never understood the desire to dress like a walking piece of stool.

    Colors are a matter of personal choice (assuming, of course, that they’re fairly neutral)… and I’ve seen well-done suits in green, brown, in navy, charcoal, and black. The green one I saw was a handsome Easter-European suit with a yolk across the back — very fetching, if a bit retro.

    One last thing: If you really want to be a fashion weenie, my favorite book is Style and the Man by Alan Flusser. It’s a treasure-trove of useful information, delightful arcana, and sartorial snobbery.

    :)

    Comment by Silus Grok — January 24, 2007 @ 2:42 pm

  35. Curses! The commenting engine is hacking-up my comment… here’s the first part of #33:

    On the post:

    4) When wearing a suit/blazer, your shirt cuff should peek out about 1/4″–1/2″ beyond the suit/blazer sleeve. Same when wearing a dress shirt under a sweater.

    If you’re being a real stickler, the cuff should have the same reveal as the back of the shirt collar. Put another way, your jacket collar leaves a certain amount of the shirt collar revealed at the base of the neck… that reveal and the cuff reveal should be the same — which, as Rusty correctly points-out, is about a centimeter.

    7) Ties should end just above the belt.

    Mid-belt.

    As a teen, though, I wore my tie so long that my brother wondered out-loud whether I used it for “dabbing” after a trip to the urinal.

    11) Get leather soles if you can afford them. They’ll last much longer and they usually look much better.

    I love my Allen Edmonds… they last forever! And while I prefer leather soles, I do not leave mine un-treated: I have my cobbler put a rubber cap on the sole and a flat piece of black rubber in the center of the fore-foot — which help for traction, and extend the life of the shoe. If you have leather soles, be sure to have your cobbler apply side dressing when they’re shined… it preserves the leather and makes the shoe look new again (it’s a small pleasure of mine to have my shoes shined)

    Comment by Silus Grok — January 24, 2007 @ 2:47 pm

  36. “I’ve actually seen a commentator or two call the button-down collars “Mormon collars” because the only people left wearing them are Mormon missionaries…”

    Such commentators must not hang out on Wall Street, boardrooms, or courtrooms. Thomas Pink sells plenty of button downs.

    Comment by Greg — January 24, 2007 @ 2:54 pm

  37. Actually, I think at least one of the commentators mentioned the financial district…

    There’s nothing wrong with button-downs — but I personally find them an unideal choice with a suit. They look decidedly more casual, and too-often are not buttoned correctly. In my book, they look more like work shirts than dress shirts.

    Comment by Silus Grok — January 24, 2007 @ 3:03 pm

  38. Iron, schmiron. Take your shirts to the cleaners to be laundered and lightly starched.

    Comment by Chris Williams — January 24, 2007 @ 3:03 pm

  39. Such commentators must not hang out on Wall Street, boardrooms, or courtrooms.

    That such shirts are found in such venues is no excuse to wear them.

    Comment by Chris Williams — January 24, 2007 @ 3:05 pm

  40. Silus Grok: You forgot that brown and green suits should never be worn at all. I’ve never understood the desire to dress like a walking piece of stool.

    Says you. I have a fabulous brown suit.

    Comment by Chris Williams — January 24, 2007 @ 3:06 pm

  41. Chris,

    I’m not offering excuses, just rebutting Silus’s suggestions that only Mormon missionaries still wear the button-down. It’s all context.

    Comment by Greg — January 24, 2007 @ 3:09 pm

  42. “In my book, they look more like work shirts than dress shirts.”

    Definitely. Weddings? No. Business meetings? Yes.

    Comment by Greg — January 24, 2007 @ 3:11 pm

  43. Just realized that Silus was not, in fact condemning brown suits but was responding to a previous condemnation. So that “says you” above is directed toward said hater.

    Comment by Chris Williams — January 24, 2007 @ 3:11 pm

  44. Greg,

    Silus was wrong about who wears button downs, but not about it being wrong.

    Comment by Chris Williams — January 24, 2007 @ 3:13 pm

  45. Silus, AE’s are the best! They will also re-sole your shoes for free. By far the best American-made shoe around.

    Comment by Tim — January 24, 2007 @ 3:20 pm

  46. Chris:

    Hope you never walk into my office for a job interview. It might sound petty but anyone (male or female) walking into my office dressed in a brown or earthy green business suit has just blown the interview.

    Brown and green are for casual dress and don’t belong anywhere on a business suit. Business suits are gray (various shades), black, or navy. If in a locale where palm trees grow then cream or white will pass as long as the suit is made of linen.

    Comment by endlessnegotiation — January 24, 2007 @ 3:22 pm

  47. I love my AE… but learned the hard way to get two pairs and to squirrel-away one of them, as the lovely folks at AE have an awful habit of discontinuing styles I like.

    I only wear monk-strapped dress shoes (long story), so that’s normally only one or two styles each season.

    And as for the Mormon collars — I was just pointing-out an audience-appropriate remark. Don’t shoot the messenger!

    :)

    Comment by Silus Grok — January 24, 2007 @ 3:27 pm

  48. endlessnegotiation:

    Given that you go by the name “endless negotiation,” I also hope I never walk into your office for a job interview.

    But, for the record, charcoal or navy are all I’d ever wear when seeking employment. Once employed, well, that’s another story.

    Comment by Chris Williams — January 24, 2007 @ 3:29 pm

  49. Wow, endlessnegotiation: and I thought I sounded up-tight!

    You’re employer sounds like 1980s-era IBM in their sartorial expectations.

    : )

    Comment by Silus Grok — January 24, 2007 @ 3:30 pm

  50. as a teen, i had the most enormous crush on a boy who wore a purple suit. egad. he was 6’7″, too, so that was a LOT of purple.

    i’m a stickler about the matching metals. i refuse to wear any gold (my wedding set is platinum) and enforce the rule for my husband. no gold buckles or watches or anything of the sort.

    and no one mentioned lavalavas or their ilk. something sexy about a man in a skirt…

    a list for women would drag on and on and have too many exceptions. living in hawai’i, i never once wore closed-toe shoes and i was shocked at how inappropriate they were on the mainland.

    Comment by pick a name, any name... — January 24, 2007 @ 3:36 pm

  51. Not a big fan of gold jewelry of any sort.

    Comment by Chris Williams — January 24, 2007 @ 3:40 pm

  52. it’s very apparent why some men need some coaching.

    from a womens perspective.

    short sleeves make you look like a missionary and they are only acceptable for such. or worse yet a baptist preacher.

    the button down shirts are for college preps, insurance guys and missionaries. alright, if it’s done tastefully, they are church appropriate

    suits are meant to be grey, black, navy, with a pin or with out and made of wool. never ever ever ever buy your suit at mr. mac.

    alway always always wear socks that cover your ankles and calves (if you can see leg hair when you cross your legs, that’s a no-no

    those nasty chunky boot/shoes things gotta go. you are a man now, a gentlemen.

    if you wear suspenders, leave the belt

    tie your shoes

    Comment by domina — January 24, 2007 @ 3:40 pm

  53. I have to second leather soled shoes. They are very economical, as they are usually better constructed that other shoes and can be resoled. If you are active and have to wear dress shoes (ie missionaries) I can understand rubber soled shoes). But cheap shoes are worth it. Cheap shoes make a nice suit cheap, and nice shoes make a less expensive outfit nicer.

    I have to disagree on button down collars – While I think oxford button downs are casual, a nice broadcloth with a button down collar looks nice. It certainly isn’t as dressy as a regular collar, and wouldn’t go with a sharkskin suit, I think it does have its place in modern society.

    Also – lets re think the three or more button suits! I know i have fallen victim to this. I am a bigger guy, and thought that showing less shirt with a 3 or four button suit was nice, but now realize i got suckered. Stick to classic 2 button suits and your investment will last longer.

    Polish the shoes!

    Take care of ties – you might want to rethink hanging for many of the ties. And retire old ones.

    Comment by Ola Senor — January 24, 2007 @ 4:20 pm

  54. This whole thing screams closet!

    Comment by Steve EM — January 24, 2007 @ 4:20 pm

  55. Not a big fan of gold jewelry of any sort.

    ‘Cep da gold initials you gots in yo teef.

    Comment by Rusty — January 24, 2007 @ 4:21 pm

  56. This whole thing screams closet!

    No Steve, Both Chris and Silus are out of the closet.

    Comment by Rusty — January 24, 2007 @ 4:24 pm

  57. Indeed.

    Comment by Silus Grok — January 24, 2007 @ 4:36 pm

  58. 33-35, Leather soled shoes–you must not live in the north east. You’ll slip and fall on your *** half the year. Rubber slip-overs aren’t much better. As for my David & Joans, I’ve found that the comfort are inversely proportional to their price. That is why they last forever–I never wear them.

    As for shirts, Rusty suggests that I’ve got to satisfy six independent criteria simultaneously:

    1) The shoulder seam of your shirts (and blazer/suit jackets, coats, everything) should land on the corner of your shoulder, not three inches down your arm.
    2) Sleeve length should end where your wrist ends and your hand begins. And no sleeve-puff above the cuff!!
    3) Your arms should fit comfortably (not spandex but not swimming) inside the sleeves. If you can fit both arms in one sleeve you’re WAY off.
    4) When wearing a suit/blazer, your shirt cuff should peek out about 1/4″–1/2″ beyond the suit/blazer sleeve. Same when wearing a dress shirt under a sweater.
    5) Chest/waist fit of shirts and suits should be comfortable (again, not spandex but not loose). A well-fitting suit will go slightly in at the waist and go back out at the hips.
    6) Neck should fit comfortably (not choking but not loose). And always button that top button.

    yet when I buy fitted shirts I can only choose two semi-independent parameters: the collar and sleeve length. And they are wrapped in plastic so I never know how they fit till I get home, unwrap the shirt, and pull out 50 pins. If it doesn’t meet all of the six above criteria, I still wear it.

    Comment by jose — January 24, 2007 @ 4:58 pm

  59. I understand this is generally supposed to be lighthearted, but good grief. I would hope members would feel comfortable wearing what they have to church, not feeling it is necessary to run down to macys and pick up a 600 dollar armani suit and pay to have it laundered. Not to mention the shoes. Ick. I guess those on the bloggernacle really are the stuck-up type!

    This is why I live on the west coast. I wear jeans and my hooded sweatshirt to work with my very worn out chuck taylors. My husband usually wears about the same. I work in recruiting at a very-large software company :) and we tell the candidates to please dress casual. Jeans and tshirts are perfectly acceptable, actually, preferred. Going to NYC to visit my sister gives me a headache with all the fashion snobbery. Lots of scriptures come to mind about costly appearal and fine-twined linens…. :)

    Comment by Veritas — January 24, 2007 @ 4:58 pm

  60. Jose,
    Actually I do live in the northeast (NYC) but I do what Silus suggests (rubber over the leather sole). It works perfect. And yeah, you’re right that’s a lot of criteria for a shirt. The truth is that I think only one of my shirts actually fit all those criteria. I can’t afford a tailored shirt.

    Veritas,
    I think you’re misunderstanding the post. I prefaced it by saying that these are the basic guidelines for business-wear, the same as if I were to describe basic table etiquette. I’m not saying those who wear white socks are barbarians or that I look down on them at church, in fact some of my best friends wear white socks to church. All I’m doing is passing on dress etiquette, that’s all.

    And before you judge the entire bloggernacle about how we judge people, keep in mind that pretty much everything listed above are things that don’t require EXTRA money, they just require a little bit of knowledge (how clothes should fit your body).

    Comment by Rusty — January 24, 2007 @ 5:13 pm

  61. That is sort of my point…once you get out of NYC, the guidlines for business wear change drastically, until by the time you are in my neck of the woods its jeans and t-shirts. Which I think is awesome. The post reminds me of that horrid show, What Not to Wear which takes these awesome, confident people and forces them to conform to a NYC dress code.

    You have to understand, I am someone who embraces, shall we say, a punk-rock sort of attitude about this stuff so my view on this, is, well…drastically different. One of my biggest pet-peeves of mormon culture is our weird obsession with apperance which I think has no scriptural back-up at all. I don’t mean to threadjack, and I wasn’t being mean spirted when I referred to you all as stuck up, that should have been followed with :) Im just sayin…I think the individual should decide what ‘dress etiquette’ is. People are afraid to be themsleves, we mistakenly think that there is some sort of dress-code for life, when really we should just be who we are and wear what we like. Sorry, I am threadjacking aren’t I…

    Comment by Veritas — January 24, 2007 @ 5:33 pm

  62. Rusty – thanks for the cost reminder. I don’t think well made shoes necessarily cost more – I go to Nordstrom Rack and Last Chance for $200 shoes for $40. $600 suits for $100.

    As far as shirt fitting – yes generally you can only control neck size and sleeve length, but brands and makers vary their sizes. So find one that fits you and buy there. For example a 17/35 from Store A fits in the chest, but isn’t long enough, Store B, too Snug, Store B’s house brand may work just right So I buy 5-6 shirts from there.

    Also you don’t have to get fully tailored shirts to have them fit. You can get semi tailored shirts that fit well.
    http://www.bestcustomshirt.com is one such site.

    Comment by Ola Senor — January 24, 2007 @ 5:42 pm

  63. No Steve, Both Chris and Silus are out of the closet.

    Way out.

    Comment by Chris Williams — January 24, 2007 @ 5:42 pm

  64. I think Veritas’ comments would more appropriately be ascribed to me, Rusty…

    :)

    Yes, I pay $350 for a pair of shoes — but my last pair lasted 10 years of _daily_ wear, and weren’t sewn in sweatshops (to my knowledge). I pay for quality, though, over quantity. Because so much of our clothing is made in sweatshops, we’ve forgotten what quality costs…

    And Rusty is right: this is standard business attire across the country. Some industries (like tech) don’t do business attire, but that doesn’t mean it’s not normative.

    And aside from white socks ( which I really do have a gut reaction to ), my only expectation from people at church is that they’re washed and if they can’t afford the culturally-mandated outfit, that they’re wearing their Sunday finest.

    For the homeless people in my ward, that may be the white pair of KEDS they keep in their bags (actual case-in-point) for Sunday.

    Comment by Silus Grok — January 24, 2007 @ 5:51 pm

  65. I paid $5 at Goodwill for my dress shoes. So far they’ve lasted 12 years…

    Comment by kuri — January 24, 2007 @ 7:10 pm

  66. I think the best outfit I’ve ever seen a man wear at church was one I saw last Sunday. Lavender satin pants with maybe a velour-like green or black suit jacket? Truly spectacular. (And I don’t mean that in a derogatory way. It was seriously awesome.)

    My other favorite outfit I’ve ever seen a man wear at church was a white tshirt with blue jeans and a wallet chain.

    Comment by Susan M — January 24, 2007 @ 7:44 pm

  67. “Lots of scriptures come to mind about costly appearal and fine-twined linens.”

    “One of my biggest pet-peeves of mormon culture is our weird obsession with apperance which I think has no scriptural back-up at all.”

    Veritas, let me ask you something. Why didn’t the Roman soldiers rent Christ’s robe after his crucifiction like they did his garment?

    Comment by Tim J. — January 24, 2007 @ 7:59 pm

  68. You can’t buy an Armani suit for $600. You can buy a decent suit, but not Armani.

    Comment by KyleM — January 24, 2007 @ 10:41 pm

  69. Silus:

    My dad swears by AE shoes. Perhaps that explains why I’m reluctant to buy them.

    Comment by Chris Williams — January 25, 2007 @ 7:47 am

  70. We have an AE outlet here. I only buy the factory seconds that they have available which saves me a ton of money. Instead of paying the $300-$350, I end up paying somewhere between $150 and $225.

    My suits come from a store similar to Nordstroms. I only buy suits that have been marked down–usually Joseph Abboud. I end up spending between $300 and $500. It’s all about keeping your eyes peeled for a good deal.

    Comment by Tim — January 25, 2007 @ 8:07 am

  71. AE outlet?

    Lucky fetch.

    Comment by Silus Grok — January 25, 2007 @ 8:19 am

  72. Yes I am. And every Memorial Day weekend they have a HUGE tent sale. It’s awesome.

    (Maybe I am in the closet)

    Comment by Tim — January 25, 2007 @ 8:41 am

  73. Okay, sartorialists–I would love to have nice shoes that lasted 10 years, and would be happy to pay for them. But . . .

    The way I walk, I wear down shoes funny, to the point that, within a year (even when I was alternating between two pair), they cause serious hip, knee, and back pain. And it doesn’t matter the brand–on a mission, I did it to Docs and to the infamous Brazilian airplane-tire resoles. So what shoes should I wear (that I can afford to repurchase or resole or something annually)?

    Comment by Sam B — January 25, 2007 @ 8:58 am

  74. Docs are terrible! They lasted me a whole two months on my mission.

    Comment by Tim — January 25, 2007 @ 9:05 am

  75. My husband still wears the same pair of Docs I bought him for Christmas the year we got married. 18 years ago.

    Comment by Susan M — January 25, 2007 @ 9:06 am

  76. Sam B – Make friends with your local shoe repair shop! Do you wear down the outside of the heel first? They can put reinforcing pads so they don’t wear out. And if I remember right resoling shoes is only like $30. I don’t wear out my shoes like I once did – but i used to have my shoes half soled and full soled once each every year.

    Comment by Jay S — January 25, 2007 @ 9:08 am

  77. Pretty much any shoe with a leather sole can be resoled, but ( as is obvious by comments ) I recommend Allen Edmonds.

    Also, if you walk _that_ “funny”, I’d seriously talk to a medical professional (if you haven’t already). That’s just plain scary.

    Comment by Silus Grok — January 25, 2007 @ 9:42 am

  78. Here are few excerpts from what clothing designer Carrie Lundell had to say about this subject a while back on T&S:

    - If you are not a deacon and are not proselyting in a South American mission, you should not be wearing short sleeve, button-up shirts–especially with a suit – UGH!

    - If you feel like you must wear a white shirt to church, invest in some new white shirts with texture or patterns in the weave. You might think that a white button-up shirt is just a white button up shirt, but there are small style variations that occur not only in the fabrics, but also in the in the cuffs and more noticeably in the collar shape. These small variations can make a big difference in your overall look.

    -Again, if you are a white shirt/suit kind of guy, the best way for you to add interest to a church outfit is with your tie and socks. Now don’t go crazy. I am NOT advocating anything with character, car, or sport motifs (these are what I call “novelties” and should be purged from your closet). It means choose something with a pop of color or an interesting pattern.

    -Every man should have: at least one nice tie clip (but I would stay away from the kistchy mormon “hold to the rod” ones or any that might fall into the “novelty” category mentioned above) and a nice dress belt that is sans cracks, rips and tears. Watches are also a great men’s accessory. Take off the sporty G-shock for church and opt for a more clean, chic style with a leather band perhaps.

    -To cuff or not to cuff? Right now, I would not buy any pants that had a cuff, but it is fine to wear the ones you have. The cuff thing comes and goes as quickly as women’s skirts rise and fall. And similarly, you are okay either way. I think the same thing goes for pleats except the pleat issue also has an affect on the look of your body. They are not slimming.

    -How many [suit coat] buttons? Two-button: conservative. Three-Button: nice and not too trendy. Four (or more) buttons – young, trendy and going out. Double-breasted: old, conservative and frankly, I would stay away.

    More here. Read the whole thread if you’re interested in an extended and sometimes angry debate over “fine apparel” and the morality of trying to look good.

    Comment by Russell Arben Fox — January 25, 2007 @ 11:09 am

  79. Jay S–I actually called about that today; the places nearby resole for ~$60.

    Silus–It’s apparently the result of minor scoliosis that has my hips at a strange angle, so I walk as if one leg were slightly longer than the other. (Of course, it took 18 years of intermittent visits to doctors to figure that out.) And I admit to not having addressed it in the last several years, because there’s not much anyone’s been able to do about it. So I limp a little and trash shoes a lot.

    Comment by Sam B — January 25, 2007 @ 11:36 am

  80. Sam B.,

    I like Allen Edmonds as the others do, and Santoni. If you’re on more of a budget, I bought a pair of Bostonian shoes that I liked, but I’ve only had one pair.

    If you have problems that are medically serious, you may wish to get an orthonic insert or a pair of shoes made for you. A cobbler modifying a pair of stock shoes may work, but mabey not.

    Comment by KyleM — January 25, 2007 @ 11:36 am

  81. No advice on cuffs for pants?

    Comment by Greg — January 25, 2007 @ 12:36 pm

  82. They’re not totally hip right now, but it’s not a big deal if you have them.

    Comment by KyleM — January 25, 2007 @ 1:44 pm

  83. I don’t think cuffs are ever going to really go out of style.

    Comment by Tim — January 25, 2007 @ 2:49 pm

  84. I say no on cuffs and pleats. Though whenever I see a man in pleats and cuffs, I know he’s straight. No self-respecting gay man would be caught dead. ;)

    Comment by Chris Williams — January 25, 2007 @ 4:10 pm

  85. endless,

    You never wear black unless:

    1. It’s a black tie event
    2. You’re at a funeral
    3. You’re a ballroom dancer
    4. You’ve got sufficient power (in the real world) to back it up.

    Black is almost always aggressive non-verbal communication. It’s says “Mess with me, I will ruin your pathetic existence upon this earth.”

    Almost never a good message to send.

    Unless you’re th CEO, in which case, the unspoken message would be true wouldn’t it?

    And even then, I’d think twice about it.

    Brown, on the other hand can be a very reassuring look. I have a fitted brown suit. It intimidates my clients much less than charcoal or navy would – which is good.

    If you want to go work for uptight mega-law firms, sure, I’d leave the brown suit at home. But frankly, I try to avoid those people in a professional context anyway.

    Comment by Seth R. — January 25, 2007 @ 5:34 pm

  86. Chris,
    You should meet some gay men outside of NYC. A good fashion sense isn’t part of the stereotype.

    Comment by cj douglass — January 25, 2007 @ 8:21 pm

  87. I wear cuffs. I like a fuller pant, and the cuffs anchor the fabric and give the pant a nice drape. I do not, however, wear pleats, as I have noticed that pleats — though they look nice and tailored on the rack — tend to look unkempt when actually worn.

    Comment by Silus Grok — January 25, 2007 @ 11:21 pm

  88. You are correct I meant GQ. The “puke and double puke” is spot on, read all the other comments (sounds like comments I’d hear in the great and spacious building) – ‘Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world, and aspire to the honors of men’.

    I’m happy that people are at church, trying to understand God, trying to learn His ways. Do you think He gives a damn what His people wear (as long as our privates are covered)?

    Comment by ed42 — January 26, 2007 @ 9:37 am

  89. ed42,

    People should dress appropriately for church. That means different things to different people. I don’t believe anyone is advocating that everyone rush out and buy a new wardrobe. Only some tips on what to do with what you have, and when the time comes to replentish your clothing, things to look for.

    I personally have worn Chinos and loafers with no jacket to church when I was a college student. It was appropriate for my circumstances. I’ve worn jeans with the creases sewn in, a western shirt, a big buckle and cowboy boots when I was living in my pickup, making my way on the rodeo circuit and working on ranches. It was appropriate for me at the time. Now, because of my circumstances, I wear a nice suit, nice shirts and nice shoes. It is appropriate for me given my circumstances and the ward I am in.

    A mechanic would never wear a suit to a job interview. A CEO would never wear jeans and a t-shirt to an interview. They both dress appropriately for the situation. The mechanic and the CEO can both dress appropriately for church as well. What is appropriate for the CEO and the mechanic might be similar, or might be different just like appropriate dress has been different for me at different points in my life.

    Comment by KyleM — January 26, 2007 @ 10:06 am

  90. ed42,
    I don’t want to beat a horse that was slaughtered over at the T&S post, but many of the comments are an interesting back and forth between what you’re saying and what we’re saying. And it’s worth reading for the sheer entertainment value as well.

    KyleM is right in his assessment. Nobody is saying you need to get rid of your wardrobe and go buy new stuff, only some tips on what to buy when the time comes. Advocating buying clothing that fits your body certainly cannot have anything to do with a great and spaceous building. When someone tells you that your tag/label is sticking out of the neck of your shirt do you tell them that they’re being worldly and shouldn’t care about how you look? I doubt it. They’re just giving you a heads up about something you’d probably like corrected that you didn’t otherwise know about. All this post is is a few of us saying, “your tag/label is hanging out of your shirt when you wear white socks with slacks.”

    Comment by Rusty — January 26, 2007 @ 10:34 am

  91. cj, I know plenty of gay men outside of New York, but I also know some poorly dressed ones in New York as well. I’m just making a little fun with the stereotype.

    Comment by Chris Williams — January 26, 2007 @ 5:37 pm

  92. ed42,

    Yes.

    God does care how you dress.

    These days, even the folks in the Great and Spacious Building dress like slobs. And they point the mocking finger at those who try to maintain a nice appearance.

    At least, you could make that argument…. Personally, I’d rather not. I’d rather leave the Spacious Building references out of it since I think it’s mischaracterizing the discussion (and a bit of exaggeration).

    Just because a person cares about appearance doesn’t necessarily mean they prioritize it above all else, or that they are a jerk about it. Clothing is a symbolic reflection of how a person views themselves and the message they choose to convey to the rest of the world on a daily basis. As saints, we are commanded to take heed of this.

    Comment by Seth R. — January 27, 2007 @ 10:43 am

  93. Rusty:
    When someone tells you that your tag/label is sticking out of the neck of your shirt do you tell them that they’re being worldly and shouldn’t care about how you look? I doubt it. They’re just giving you a heads up about something you’d probably like corrected that you didn’t otherwise know about. All this post is is a few of us saying, “your tag/label is hanging out of your shirt when you wear white socks with slacks.”

    Nice try, no dice. Telling someone about a tag/label is something someone can immediate correct to avoid future embarrassment. Telling them not to wear white socks is an immediate hurt that they can’t change (without going home).

    Seth:
    The guy next to me today in the endowment session wore brown socks, yes brown socks during the session. Does God care? I don’t think so – He is happy someone is doing temple work.

    Also I have not “put down” people caring about their OWN appearance, it’s when they start to put down others about the clothes/style/appearance is what I condemn – church is a hospital for sinners (and whatever they choose to wear).

    Comment by ed42 — January 27, 2007 @ 4:22 pm

  94. I understand that ed,

    It just seems to me that every time anyone tries to bring up tips for maintaining a nice appearance, people seem to get really huffy and hypersentsitive. And it doesn’t seem to make much difference how non-judgmental or nice the person is about it.

    People immediately get all defensive and start loudly pointing out how “it’s what inside that counts.”

    Of course what’s inside counts. And so does what’s outside.

    But that wasn’t really the point.

    If you are capable of dressing in a complementary fashion, you should. Simple.

    Comment by Seth R. — January 27, 2007 @ 8:47 pm

  95. ed42,
    Are you at church right now? Why would you have to go home to change out of your white socks if you’re sitting at home reading this? Don’t be ridiculous! I’m not giving these tips to people AT CHURCH, everyone reading this is in the comfort of their own home (or office) and have the power to avoid wearing white socks to church next Sunday (or next time they buy a new shirt to get it fitted properly, or next time they put on a blazer to not button the bottom button, etc).

    Comment by Rusty — January 27, 2007 @ 9:40 pm

  96. Seth,
    Although I disagree with ed, I think you’re taking it too far. If I understand Rusty correctly, he’s saying, “if you’re interested, here are some tips”. Not, If you are capable of dressing in a complementary fashion, you should. What you’re saying sounds more like a requirement than a suggestion. Or maybe I’m misunderstanding you.

    Comment by cj douglass — January 28, 2007 @ 12:10 pm

  97. Requirement for what cj?

    Clothing is a very powerful symbol. It signifies how you interface with society and your fellow human beings. A fully realized individual should, therefore, most certainly be thoughtful in their appearance. I’m not demanding homogenaity here. But I am asking for a bit more though and consideration in choice of wardrobe.

    A perfect person would therefore, be a well-dressed person. But note that this doesn’t demand a strict dress-code. I’ve seen people whose “casual” outfits are far nicer than most people’s formal outfits. So don’t think there’s no room for flexibility here.

    But a perfected being does not dress like a slob.

    Now would I actually bother to judge a fellow human being based on appearance?

    I hope not. I hope I would be as accepting and open as you, ed, and whoever else. Who am I to say that my brother’s ill-fitting shirt should have precedence over his countless other qualities? Who am I to say that a nice suit is more important to me than my multitude of personal flaws?

    People are far too complex to be irrevocably pidgeon-holed based on dress and grooming. I would hope that I’d be above such a disservice to others (though realistically, I understand that it is hard to avoid judgmentalism).

    But that doesn’t mean that a blanket-call to straighten up and dress a bit more decently is not both timely and called for. And I think that barring personal insecurity, dress and grooming tips ought to be received thankfully (provided they’re actually good tips, that is).

    Comment by Seth R. — January 28, 2007 @ 6:47 pm

  98. In my version of the Celestial Kingdom, we all get to dress like slobs. Sweats for eternity!

    Comment by Susan M — January 28, 2007 @ 8:00 pm

  99. I perfectly understand what you are saying Seth. But Rusty’s post is talking about whether your tie lands on your buckle or below it, whether your shirt lands your shoulder or beyond it or whether your belt matches your shoes. Such items are very helpful and I have no problem with the post but I would classify these welcome suggestions as “going the extra mile” – not the difference between well dressed and disheveled.

    Comment by cj douglass — January 28, 2007 @ 8:17 pm

  100. “With a 3-button suit, you button the middle button and leave the top and bottom unbuttoned.”

    Or you can button the top two (the more traditional of the two looks). You CAN button just the top button, but that’s a real trendy look and isn’t appropriate for church.

    “some of my best friends wear white socks to church”

    Thanks for that, Rusty. I laughed so out loud.

    Comment by Kim Siever — January 29, 2007 @ 7:15 am

  101. I can’t believe no one has mentioned that suit pants should hang from the waist, not the hips! If you must treat your suit trousers like a common pair of denim dungarees, have them tailored so no one mistakes you for M.C. Hammer.

    If you don’t people will sneer at you and mock you until you go inactive!

    Comment by KyleM — January 29, 2007 @ 9:18 am

  102. Oh, and realize that the hand-warmer pockets on a suit come sewn shut for a reason.

    Leave them sewn shut. It helps maintain the shape of the suit.

    And, for the love of Pete, never put your keys or cell phone in there! Nothing ruins a suits shape quicker than putting keys and other items in the hand-warmer pockets.

    Comment by Seth R. — January 30, 2007 @ 5:54 am

  103. KyleM, I need to have them tailored to wear them that high. If I wore pants that high without tailoring them, I’d have a perpetual wedgie.

    Comment by Kim Siever — January 30, 2007 @ 9:21 am

  104. There is no greater lie than ‘it doesn’t matter how you dress.’ There is no greater boost to self esteem than feeling great about how you look, and sensing in the mirror or from the feel of your clothes that you are put together. I hate dressing up, and one of the reasons I like the academic life is that I don’t have to wear a tie or suit (although I do sometimes, which is nice as well.) At the same time, that feeling of wearing great shoes and knowing my tie is just right when I take the wife out on the town makes me feel, well, potent.

    Comment by Norbert — January 30, 2007 @ 1:15 pm

  105. Seth:

    I agree with your list of appropriate times for black but you left out one other instance where black is appropriate:

    5. You’re a member of the clergy

    Black is the color of superiority and traditionally clergy has been granted that indulgence.

    The only time I’ve ever worn a black suit was when I had to provide a deposition prior to trial. I bought and wore the suit specifically to demonstrate to oposing counsel what I thought of our “relationship.” We won so I guess I was justified. That suit sits in my closet collecting dust to this day (At least I think so. For all I know my wife gave it away 20 lbs ago).

    As for brown suits, I still think people end up looking like 6 foot tall walking turd in them.

    And speaking of 20 lbs ago– when getting a suit fitted it’s also a good idea to have the tailor leave a little extra fabric to allow for fluctuations in weight. Depending on the climate it’s not unusual for a person’s weight to fluctuate 10-15 lbs during the year (it’s seasonal). Suits look better when they fit well and the ability to take them in for seasonal adjustments is a nice touch.

    Comment by endlessnegotiation — January 30, 2007 @ 3:29 pm

  106. “There is no greater lie than ‘it doesn’t matter how you dress.’”

    That might be true (but somehow I doubt it). Just don’t assume that dressing a certain way will make others feel the same way it does for you.

    Comment by Susan M — January 30, 2007 @ 3:38 pm

  107. For all I know my wife gave it away 20 lbs ago

    What does your wife’s weight gain have to do with her giving away your clothes?

    Comment by gst — January 30, 2007 @ 5:14 pm

  108. Your choice: Dress like the masters of Babylon or Alma 1:27 “and they did not wear costly apparel, yet they were neat and comely.”

    Comment by Daylan — January 30, 2007 @ 8:28 pm

  109. “Costly” is relative. I can afford alot nicer suit than my brother who is in grad school. We each dress appropriately for our circumstances, and everyone understands why.

    Get over it. If you’re poor, dress the best you can for church. If you’re not, dress the best you can for church. Doing so is a sign of respect for the Lord and those around you. If you do the best you can, then anyone who criticizes has the bigger problem. If you don’t, then you both have a problem.

    Comment by KyleM — January 31, 2007 @ 11:38 am

  110. Daylan,

    Even dressing like a slob in America is “costly.” People fill their closets with ill fitting and ill gotten apparel. Very little of which they feel any gratitude or appreciation for.

    Appreciation and love for quality craftsmanship is not what Alma was talking about.

    Comment by Seth R. — February 1, 2007 @ 6:40 am

  111. [...] The comments from the men’s fashion post made me think about something close to my heart: worldy possessions. Indeed I like them and want more. Yes, I know, filthy lucre and fine-twined linens won’t bring me happiness blah blah blah, but this isn’t a post about that eye-through-the-needle-of-a-camel stuff, it’s about how we spend our money. [...]

    Pingback by Nine Moons » Blog Archive : I Love Lucre (Sans Filthiness) » I Love Lucre (Sans Filthiness) — February 5, 2007 @ 12:47 pm

  112. Good fashion doesn’t have to be expensive

    Sam, over at GFD (http://www.gettingfinancesdone.com) posted about some pretty hip neckties that seriously rock for church.

    The site is WearCacti.com and they sell some screaming ties that work well with any color shirt!

    Comment by Rocky — February 24, 2007 @ 6:57 pm

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